Starting an Enneagram coaching business with Clinical Psychologist Dr Rebekah Tennyson

TRANSCRIPT

SPEAKERS

Rosie Gilderthorp, Rebekah Tennyson

Welcome to the Business of Psychology Podcast, the show that helps you to reach more people, help more people and build the life you want to live by doing more than therapy. Welcome to today's Business of Psychology podcast. And today, I'm really excited to be joined by Dr. Rebecca Tennyson. Rebecca is a clinical psychologist and an Enneagram coach, working both in private practice and in the NHS. So it's lovely to see you today, Rebecca.

It's really nice to be on the podcast, I've listened to you a lot, so...

Oh, gosh, that feels like pressure! But today I'd really love to hear how you discovered the Enneagram. It's not something I know a lot about, and so I'd love to hear how you're using it to change people's lives, really. So first, can you explain, for those of us who don't know, what the Enneagram actually is?

Yes. So this is actually something that I always know I'm going to be asked whenever I talk about the Enneagram, because most people don't know what it is. And I have to practice my answer a little bit, because I am so passionate about it, but it is so complex that I can just start waffling all over the place. But in a nutshell, it is a personality typology really, that's based around the idea of nine core types. But it's all about your motivations and not your behaviour. So it's really not supposed to be something that's just descriptive and that gives labels or puts people in boxes, and says, oh here's a little bit of information about you. It's very, it's a very dynamic model, it's supposed to be very transformative and all about personal growth. So what do you do with this information about yourself now that you're understanding yourself a little bit better in this way? And all of the different types, if you Google it, Google Enneagram there's this nice little kind of diagram with nine points around the outside, and you'll see that there are ways that they're all linked. And so again, it's a model of movement and thinking about how types, and different personality traits and types are connected and how we are... I suppose have a greater access to different kinds of personality traits naturally, which can then help you to see obviously, what your strengths are, and what your blind spots are. So think about how you might need to be more intentional about bringing in different aspects that will be useful to you in different times as well as when you, I suppose you just have to really press into your natural strengths. But yeah, the psychologist in me just adored the complexity of it when I first discovered it. And I think I've always been quite interested in personality, as concept. My dad, when I was a teenager, he was training to be a counsellor in transactional analysis. I remember having lots of conversations with him about kind of performing and surviving personality adaptations and that kind of thing. And you know, I love a good magazine quiz, what kind of cocktail are you? Or anything like that, right from the very, very pop psychology kind of end all the way up to something that's a bit more meaningful. And when I discovered the Enneagram, I was immediately hit by how, for me, it just felt like it had so much more depth than anything else I'd ever come across, and that it could be used so extensively in my own personal life, as well as professionally. I love that there are so many facets to it, that help you to feel like an individual. And that really value uniqueness, which again, I think can be very difficult when you're doing any kind of personality work, it can feel like you're just trying to put people in boxes. But one of my favourite quotes about the Enneagram is the Enneagram doesn't put you into a box, it helps you to get out of the box you're already in, by noticing what it is that you have ended up developing as part of your personality really, as ways of trying to survive in this world, but that are limiting you. I suppose. So. Yeah.

That's really interesting, because I think, without knowing anything about it, I've heard on business podcasts in particular, people being like, oh, I'm a type eight, is that thing?

Oh, yeah, one to nine.

Yeah, so I've heard people talking about being type eight sometimes. And I've always worried a little bit, oh, is that limiting people slightly. But actually, it sounds like it's all about kind of empowerment and noticing stuff about yourself so that you can find the pathway to maybe grow and develop.

Absolutely. And like I said, it's not about behaviour, it is about motivation. So it's really important that you don't think that you can type other people, you can't guess what people are just buying even knowing quite a lot about them really, because what you know... two people can look very similar. So me and my best friend for example, I remember having conversations with her about this really early on. And we realised that we are very similar in lots of very superficial ways, and then as soon as we started uncovering some more this, the depth of the Enneagram work which we discovered at a similar time we realised that, oh, sometimes this is why we clash, because we think we're really similar but actually, we need such different things in these situations, and actually our motivations behind doing certain things, so for example we're both very organised, but the reasons that we think it's important to be organised are very, very different. So yeah, the core of these core motivations are all about things that we fundamentally believe about the world, the way that we see the world, the way that we see interactions with other people, the things that we really fear and the things that we really desire. If you saw a list of all of the core kind of fears and desires and motivations, you'd go, oh, yeah, you know, they're all things that obviously nobody wants to feel insecure or overpowered, or unwanted or unworthy. Everybody wants to feel calm and loved and appreciated. And you know, they're all, nobody would go, oh that one doesn't really matter to me. But they'll always be one that at the core is just so much more important to you, and then again, that that is what will fundamentally drive pretty much everything. But again, the complexity of that takes into account that there will be so much that happens in your life, and so many different people around you who bring their own personalities and things that will influence that in very obvious and then much more subtle ways. Yeah.

That is fascinating, because I think I've got a close friend in particular, who my husband always says, How do you guys get on so well, because on the surface, we look really, really different. We've had really different lives, really different experiences in a lot of ways. And, you know, I, I am somebody that appears to live quite an organised and disciplined life, I like doing things like exercise, I like a bit of routine, whereas she's total chaos, total, total chaos, so life looks unmanageable to me. But I've always had this feeling that at our core, the things that motivate and drive us are just the same. And we connect on a really deep level and are similar deep down, even though our behaviours can be quite different. And I guess it speaks to that, really?

Yeah, absolutely. And one of the key questions that I always get asked about relationships as well, friendships or romantic relationships, or anything is like, what's the best pairing, what's the best, you know, type to go with which type? And that's not how it works at all, any type can be just as good with any other type. It's about that self awareness, about the awareness of how you are similar and how you are different. And whether you can appreciate and value somebody else's perspective, as well as seeing that if you are the same type as somebody, then you're it as a team, then you're going to have massive blind spots, and need to know where you just need to be more aware of that and question that a little bit. But there are various different ways in which different types are linked as well. So there are a set of what are called triads, groups of three numbers that share some commonality. And therefore, every type is linked with every other type in some sort of way. So for example, one of the most basic ones is around centres of intelligence. So thinking that we get information through the world, through our emotions, through thinking and through our kind of bodily sensations, or gut instincts. And we all get information through all three of those, but there'll be one that we primarily get information through, and then one that supports that, and then one that is repressed. So twos, threes, and fours are in what's called the heart triad. Five sixes and sevens are in the head triad. And then eights, nines, and ones are in the gut triad. So me and my friend are both in the heart triad. So again, even though we do have a lot of differences, one thing that we both really appreciate and connect on is the fact that we are going to be both very emotional people who are very aware of the emotional temperature of a situation or room or how we're doing. And so conversations about emotions and deep conversations about emotions is something that we are absolutely always up for, and we never find that overwhelming. So that's been something that we've connected on right from the start. And then for people in other triads where we might have struggled more to be close to people, because maybe they don't want to talk about emotions as much, or maybe they don't feel like they're as aware of emotions, either their own or other people's. Knowing that that's not because they don't care about that, or because they're not listening to us, it's just that they are accessing the world in a slightly different way, and different pieces of information are going to come for them first just helps us again, to be a bit more compassionate about those conversations. So you've had my husband Jase on the podcast, and he's in the gut triad. So if I asked him how he's feeling, he needs longer to answer that the way that I want it answered. I need to give him a bit more time around that and I'm much more likely to be able to just ask him about his kind of general sense of how things are and then ask him what he's thinking about a situation before I'm then able to get the kind of emotional conversation that I might need to have with my friends for example. So it just is you know, just very much about awareness and how you then end up having conversations with different people and, and explain things about yourself that you assume everybody else knows. Because if you think that everybody else is experiencing a situation or sees the world the same way you do, then you don't realise when you have to explain your perspective, do you? So then often, I found that particularly with this, the more I understand about myself, the more I'm able to explain that to other people, the more other people then go, oh that's really interesting, that's not like me at all, and then it opens up the floodgates. But I think sometimes that offering a piece of yourself helps other people to then think about how to talk about themselves, whereas if you just asked a question about that, they wouldn't necessarily know what you're getting at.

That sounds like a really powerful concept, and my head is kind of pinging in all kinds of directions with all the kind of clinical applications that this could be useful for. And I know that in the NHS, you were working with children and families. So how did you start incorporating this into your practice?

It's so interesting, because I would say probably the second most frequently asked question I get is what's the real difference between therapy and coaching? I think what you're speaking to there is that if you are a clinical psychologist or a therapist, and you're also offering coaching, I wouldn't say there is a clear boundary. Is that how you experience it too?

Absolutely. And actually, I had a consultation with somebody yesterday who said, what is the difference between therapy and coaching? Like how do you coach versus how do you do therapy, and I said, honestly, I can't switch one off. I can't stop being a therapist just because we're doing a bit more coaching work. And I think for me, it's about the knowledge and the expertise that I've gained over the years from lots of different areas. And that's what makes me be able to do what I do the particular way that I do it. Which again, is what I'm trying to feel in myself as well as tell other people that you are a one off. Only you can do what you can do, the way you can do it. So it's difficult I think sometimes to put yourself out there if you see any other therapists or psychologists that are doing something similar to what you want to do. And it's daft to think that there isn't enough work to go around for everybody. But also that because one person sets themselves up and goes, I do Enneagram coaching and therapy, that nobody else can come in and do that because I wouldn't be, I wouldn't do things the way that every client needs it to be done or wants it to be done. And that was again, something that was quite encouraging for me at the beginning to go, I do, it's really honestly very difficult for me to say these words; I think I'm good at what I do.

Yay. Yay!

It's really hard for you to do that. But I think I'm good at what I do. And I think we all do have those moments don't we, where we come out of a particular session and we go, Yes! This is why I do what I do, I am great! And then for some people, it doesn't take very much to knock that back and, and make you doubt yourself again. So taking that step forward to go, I think this is going to be helpful for people, and I think I can do it well, I'm going to give it a go. And then finding that it did work, and people do want it. And it is benefiting people, is just inspiring me to keep going and to just rave about the Enneagram with the people who want that.

Oh, I love hearing that, and I just want people to take a minute to let that land. Because I think the most powerful thing, when imposter syndrome is raging and you feel terrible about yourself, it's remember those moments because you do have them or you wouldn't have got this far. Those moments where you feel like you really connected, you saw the shift for somebody, just go back to those moments and remember how you felt. And just use that as the push that you need to keep going.

One of my colleagues actually, when she left my team, about a year ago, she brought us all these tiny little notebooks, I think mine's over there, it has a Disney quote on the front. And she's written in the front of it, use this book to keep a note of all of the things that go well, all the compliments that you get from clients, so that when you're having your more difficult days with work, you can look back over these and remember why you do what you do. And I thought that is a great idea. Because when someone gives you one of those amazing compliments and says you've changed their life, you think you're never going to forget that. And of course you do. You don't want to think you will. But you do. So I have done exactly that. And not every time, I do forget, but I try and carry it around with me whether I'm at home or in the office and think about after a session if there's anything that I want to put in there. Yeah. And then you originally, you know, how do I use this in NHS work? Not overtly, obviously, not with children and not in an NHS setting. But what I always have in the back of my mind, which helps me with formulating is, I'm going to assume that if someone comes to me and says that they are struggling with for example, social anxiety in the way people perceive them, my brain is going to stop pinging about reasons why I think that they're struggling with that. And it's useful for me to be able to then take a step back and go, oh, but I'm aware of nine different core fears here now suddenly, and there are so many different reasons why someone might come to me with what on the surface looks like the same kind of problem. So I think it's just helped me to add layers to my formulations, which of course, I always check out, and whether we're doing kind of traditional therapy or Enneagram coaching, it's all about collaboration, it's all about, I'm going to throw this out there as a hypothesis and see whether this fits for you, and get you to tell me what your experience is like. But also then, any assumptions that I make about clients, I think I question them a lot more, a lot quicker. And not in a 'am I wrong' kind of way. But in a 'I know that this is the assumption I make because of the lens that I'm looking through', and so I know I need to question that, and it's not about me being wrong, it's about me only having one way of seeing the world, and appreciating that that's not going to be the same for everybody. Which again, really helps me because for again, different reasons people don't like to be wrong, and that can be very threatening to your sense of self. So it's really helpful, it's given a really helpful framework for me to just question in a way that doesn't feel quite as threatening to me.

Yeah, so it kind of helps you to self reflect on assumptions that you might be making, but also gives kind of nine different angles to look at a behaviour from, and, you know, I guess that's really useful when you're generating hypotheses about why somebody might be behaving in a certain way. Gosh, my brain is just going over all these formulations I've got going on at the moment thinking, hmm, I wonder if I've done that, and if I should really go back and, and have a look from a few different angles. Very, very useful. And again, a really good example of how sometimes we're not using a particular protocol or a formal approach, but everything that we've learnt is still there, in our minds informing how we formulate, and I think often we can be encouraged to be like, right, today, I'm doing EMDR, I'm not doing CBT today. Or today, I'm going to do pure CBT because that's what the insurer asked for. But actually, if you've got training in other stuff, it will enter your formulation, it will enter the way that you work. You can't switch it off. And I think it's great to acknowledge that.

Yeah, and it doesn't matter what kind of therapy you have with me, you're going to get some ACT exercises in there for example.

Yes, you can't switch it off, it's always there, and CFT as well. And I think I get asked this a lot because I do business coaching with other psychologists and therapists, and people often say to me, oh, well, where did you learn to do that coaching? Well, I have done some formal kind of coaching, training. But that's not really where I got the skills that I use, I feel that I'm using my ACT and my CFT. And, of course, my business knowledge as well. But really, it's my core therapy, I'm not very different in the therapy room to how I am when I'm coaching people, it's all of your experience is up there in your head. And you should be confident to say that to people. Yeah. I've been on a bit of a rant there, but I just, it's really nice to hear somebody talking about that explicitly, when I've been thinking about it for a while. So how are you most commonly helping people at the moment, who's your typical client that comes to you for Enneagram work?

So I'd say, the people who have found me and reached out to me are people who have heard about the Enneagram, either don't know much about it, and are intrigued, and are looking for something for themselves. So often, people, they're not sure whether they want therapy, or whether they want coaching or counselling, but they're interested in the Enneagram. So they've done a bit of a Google search, and I don't think there are many, if any other therapists using the Enneagram in the UK at the moment, there are other coaches or teachers, but I haven't come across anybody else who's trained as a, as a clinical psychologist. So some people have found me and just gone, ah, you're, you're what I want, because actually, I want somebody who can walk the line between these, or at least who can help me understand what it is that I need. Because a lot of people don't know what they want, or what they need, they might know that they want to process something or want some help around something. But I realise every time any of these questions get asked on my professional Facebook groups about can anybody else help me to think about how I would explain the distinction between this, this role and this other role, I go, I'm still learning that, and I feel like I can explain much more confidently what a clinical psychologist is, but still not as confidently what an educational psychologist or occupational psychologist or even psychiatrist does, because I don't do those jobs. So it's incredibly confusing for people who don't work in the area at all to know what it is that they want. So I have had a few people come to me and say, I don't actually know what I need, could you help me figure that out? And then because I do kind of straddle both of those areas, often I'm able to offer them something that they say, yep, that sounds great, I want that. I've also had people who, they want a therapist, but they want someone who knows the Enneagram because they have already come across it and they do know their type, and they want to be able to talk about that in a very Enneagram way with someone who understands what that means. So that even if they don't feel that they need the Enneagram coaching side of things, they're already quite confident with how to use that, and they're doing their own reading, they need to be able to discuss that with someone who knows what they're talking about. So I'd say those are the two, two main kind of groups of people at the moment.

That's really interesting. And is there anything that these people have in common? Because I have heard of the Enneagram on business podcasts, so I was wondering if you might get a particular client group because that, I know business is an area where the Enneagram is starting to explode, especially in the States, people are talking about it more, or are they from all different walks of life?

That's a very good question. No, I don't, I'm going to go away after this and think about it, I'm going to see some like patterns. But no, I don't think there's any particular walk... I think it is just about whether they happen to have come across the Enneagram which I think people have done in lots of different ways. It is much more popular in the States. There's much more, there are many more kind of coaching programmes and kind of big Enneagram teachers that are based in the States. It isn't based in any one religion, no, I think along the way, as with most things, lots of different religions have tried to claim it. It doesn't have, it doesn't have a basis in any one religion, but does have or can have a fairly strong spiritual aspect to it. If you have a faith that you believe that you've been, and has anything to do with connection to the universe, or that you've been created by a deity, again, that trying to uncover exactly what that essence is for you. So it fits very nicely with faith based organisations as well. So as I'm thinking there are some people who have come across it through their faith communities, and that it's been something that's been mentioned. Or, for example, I know my local church has done a couple of groups around the Enneagram, helping people to think about that and discover their own type over the last couple of years. I would say one thing that everybody who has come to me has in common is they really want to understand themselves more than they want to solve a problem, or work towards a goal, actually, if that makes sense. So, whereas in CAMHS, people come and say, I have this problem, help me fix it. People are coming to me much more saying, yeah, you know, maybe I have difficulties and there are things are hard in my life at the moment, but generally, I just want to understand myself more so that I can understand how I'm dealing with these situations, and then take that forward. So it's more of a whole life, I'm going to take this forward in everything approach, rather than I have one problem that I need one solution for, which of course, is not how we work, but that's often what people come to us asking for, isn't it?

Yeah, I can see how that must feel really refreshing actually, to get people who are on that journey of self discovery, rather than just needing to fight a fire. I think often when I get frustrated in clinical work, is because we've done our sessions on fighting the fire, and I'm like, right, this is the beginning. But perhaps it's perceived that it should be the end. And I think that happens more commonly in the NHS, I think, you know, you get your 12 sessions, if you're lucky, with somebody, are they having panic attacks anymore? No. Brilliant! Okay, off they go then. And you think oh but I'd really like to see you for a bit longer and work on that personal development, that might mean that you don't end up in this situation again, and we don't always get the opportunity to do that. So it sounds really rewarding to get to do that work. And that this is maybe attracting people who really want to optimise their lives I suppose.

Yeah, that's exactly what it is, it feels like a massive relief to not be firefighting, which is how I've described NHS work for a long time, actually. It is, it's really refreshing. And I need that kind of work, I've realised, in order to, I can't just work and rest. I can't work really hard in one area, and then chill out and not work. I need a balance in the middle where I am working and doing something that I'm passionate about and enjoying, I need to be doing, not that my NHS isn't, but I need to be doing meaningful work that gives more to me than it takes. And I think there are times in my NHS work where that balance is fine, and obviously there are times where things get tricky, and they dip. And so far, my private work has always been tilted in the right direction. And as long as that's the case, then doing that alongside my NHS work, even though that would seem to some people a bit bananas, because if your NHS work is really hard, then why are you taking on work outside of that? Actually, that really helps me, it boosts me, and it gives me more of those like, yeah, I love what I do moments, which I think helps with my rest and helps with the rest of my work.

I think that makes a lot of sense. I think especially, I did a job where explicitly, my job was to do something with the heart sink cases. Which actually was, it was a great job, because what that meant was being innovative and having a kind of blank slate to go into care homes as it was and design training for the teams and think in a totally different way about helping this individual. So it was great, but because of the constraints of the service and the budget constraints, you often didn't get to the finish line that you wanted. I would often design something that couldn't happen, or you know, it might work really well, but you know, there's no funding for that to continue long term. So it would leave you with a bit of an oh feeling. But a few private clients where you get to do exactly what you want to do, and the money doesn't run out, so you can keep going for as long as you need, that can give you that sense of professional fulfilment that you're not always getting, it's kind of like scratching an itch I think, and it can be really useful to balance the two. And that's a story that I hear a lot in our community.

Yeah, well, it's an opportunity to just try different things out as well that you just wouldn't be able to do. And I know you talk a lot about you know, finding your ideal client and a niche and everything but actually at this early stages, particularly, you've got the opportunity to just go I'm gonna try a bit of anything and everything and see what I like and that's okay. And that might make your marketing more difficult at the beginning, but it is an okay part of the process to figure out what it is that you want to do, because if you do come down with a very specific niche, and you're going to wholeheartedly go that way, it's much better that you've decided you've gone through a process of realising that that's definitely what you want, and what you definitely don't want. And I think that that's something that I realised I just hadn't ever stepped back and thought about in my NHS role, because I've always assumed (and probably rightly so in a lot of cases) that there are going to be constraints around what I can and cannot do, either because obviously, I'm in a child and adolescent mental health service, so I'm never going to be working perinatally, for example. But, and that, and that's okay, but I think that has also for me, then stopped me questioning what work could look like. Until quite recently, when I did have a big think about what I wanted my work life to look like, because I put so much effort into thinking about what I wanted that to be outside of the NHS, that I started to question what it looked like in the NHS, and I'm actually moving roles at Easter, still within the NHS and still with CAMHS. But it made me question what I want to be doing day to day, and what my current role could offer and couldn't, and seek something different out. So that's been really helpful as well. I don't know that this is a, you know, I'm hoping it's going to be a really good move for me, but it's me stepping out of my comfort zone to be able to try something new, rather than staying where I, staying with what I know, which is, again, something that I'm making myself do, because it doesn't come very naturally.

But it seems like there's a real theme running through this of, you know, discovering something about yourself, trying things out, feeling into it almost, feeling how it feels, and then making an informed choice after that about what you want to do. And yeah, it sounds like a really powerful tool for you and also for your clients. But you touched on something that I just want to circle back to there. And that's about the marketing and how it kind of is, I would say more difficult to market, when you're looking for this quite broad group of people who actually all have something very fundamental in common, that need for self discovery, but who might have really different ways of talking and being and Googling from each other. So how have you been finding people for your coaching practice?

So early on, I remember having a conversation with somebody that like I'm really struggling to think of a niche, really struggling to know who it is that I really want to work with. Because obviously, like I said, I've always worked with kids, and that is still something I'm really passionate about. But I can't do this Enneagram work with kids. And I don't want to do as much private work with children. So with that aside, I was really struggling to think about who my ideal client might be, or what it is that I particularly wanted to do and to sell and to market, until someone turned around to me and went ‘you're a therapist that does Enneagram, like, that's your niche’. And I went, oh yeah! But it's something about, you can tell well I know that's true, it's something about immediately seeing what I can offer is not special enough. And thinking I don't have as much as that person over there, I need to be really specialist in one very particular area and seeing all of the other areas that other people are specialist in and going oh, well, I'm not specialist in that. And that's such a... just stop focusing on other people. I think the Do More Than Therapy community has been so helpful for examples of what people can do and for highlighting that not everybody does things in the same way, not everybody gets to where they want to be in the same way. But it's human nature, isn't it to just look at what somebody else does and go, well, if I can't do that I'm not sure what I can do. But again, recognising that in myself and having people around me who point that out. I often have conversations with people about what I do, either Enneagram or psychology, and say something that I just think is so obvious, and they go, oh my gosh, that's a really good point. And I have to remind myself that just because I live in a psychology world, and I have conversations with people who understand the language I use and think about the same things, but that is not the norm, and that's not everybody, and that actually, I'm reaching outside of that bubble, and not within it. So yes, what I do offer, that is a niche. So I, I put quite a lot of effort into setting up a website, and I don't mean this this in a 'everybody go and look at my website, it's the best', but I did it myself and I really wanted to make sure that I was really happy with the information that was on there before it went out. So I was a little perfectionistic about that.

Oh I forgot to say it's a really good site. I can't believe you did that yourself.

Oh, yeah, and like through a, just a, you know, build it yourself, very easy thing. I don't know how to do any kind of web design or coding or anything. But yes, this was, this looks pretty, I like it.

It does, it looks really good, well done.

And then I really started to think about two ways of doing things, I suppose. One is very actively reaching out and trying to find people in places that might be interested in me. And then the other side is of course, have a little play on social media. So I set up an Instagram account, a Facebook account, a LinkedIn account. Instagram is definitely where I feel more comfortable, it's where I spent more time before setting up in private practice, I'm just more familiar with the functionality of it. And I'm trying to work out whether I want to do more on Facebook and LinkedIn, or whether I think I should. And when I know the answer to that question, it's going to go one way or the other as to how much time I spend on there. But I'm happy with where I am at the moment. And I think Instagram has been a real place for me of just trying to, again, work out what it is that I want to do and what I want to put out there. Because knowing that I'm, again, a therapist who knows the Enneagram, there's just a million different things I could put out there and say about that. And I think I made the mistake early on of either trying to give, again, too much information or trying to be too varied in content, and as soon as I realised that it's very easy to like, oh well, you're doing a rubbish job, then as opposed to going no, actually, this is fine. You haven't done this before, you're working out as you go along. And I would rather be putting stuff out there and giving it a go and seeing what the feedback is, than sitting there wondering what should go out there and then just doubting everything and never putting anything.

Oh, absolutely. I think testing is everything, because it's a conversation, essentially. So I did a talk this morning for a networking group, and somebody asked me whether I used the disc framework for... what's it called? Market research, understanding your audience. And I said, no. I've never heard that! The imposter syndrome in me was like, no, because you're too stupid and you don't know anything about it. But I was like, no, I don't, I don't use anything like that because actually, I want to talk to people, and once I've spoken to people, then I try and create the stuff on social media which I think they want to see or they need to see. And it's a slower process, and it means that sometimes I get it totally wrong and I put stuff out there which nobody wants to see. I'm confident of it! But I don't really care, because every now and again I'll put something out there which clearly does resonate with people, and I'll just do more of that. But if you're in your head reading a textbook for too long about how to do market research, for example, then you're not going to have those conversations and actually find out what people want from you. So I see it as you know, if you put a reel up there, you're opening up a conversation. If people then talk back, then you know this is an interesting conversation and you'll carrying on. If they don't, then you'll move on to a different topic, just like you would at a party.

Yeah. And I think I have, I have found information about how to use different platforms and mistakes that other people think they've made and things that other people have tried and has worked or not worked for them really, really useful. But it can also feel like an overwhelming amount of information. And of course, everybody is selling the top five ways to get 100,000 followers or you know, and, and that kind of certainty of success is impossible to promise. But as long as people are selling it, we can kid ourselves that it's there, and if we're not getting it, then we're getting something wrong. And I think I'm in a really lucky place at the moment of, like I said, because people seem to have just found me through googling primarily, then I'm happy with the number of clients I've got. Like I said, I have a toddler, I'm still working part time in the NHS. And I'm really happy for this to be a time when I am testing things out and I'm working out what kind of clients and what kind of work I want to take on, and thinking about how much in the future I want to be staying with the one to one work versus offering a few more workshops that I'll be able to do during kind of school hours or evenings, versus online courses, and workshops and things like that. And I'm just still thinking about it whilst still moving forward. And I think the risk that the pitfalls that I could have fallen into would have been to do too much research, to try and be too certain before doing anything, or to commit to everything and not see it as a learning process whatsoever and be like, well, this is what I'm doing now. I'm really, really trying to just evaluate all the way along the way. Is this the right amount for me right now? Is this too much? Does it feel like it's having too much of an impact on my family life? Because I'm not around for too many bedtimes or things like that and just go okay, well, I'm not going to drop a client right now, but when I finished with someone, I'm not going to pick anybody else up for a while and just constantly evaluating that balance. Because again, it's going to change and how I feel at one point is going to be different six months later. So I don't feel like I have to very actively and very aggressively market myself in a way that I would need to if I was much more dependent on this for income. So I do feel incredibly lucky in that, because I know that not everybody's in that position. And I'm slightly terrified of what I have to up my game!

But when you do, you'll be doing it from a foundation of having that time getting to know the people that you like working with. Because you say at the moment, that the challenge, the marketing challenge is that there's not like a really specific client group. But the more that you work with people, you'll be able to go back through the ones that worked the most effectively with you, that you've got the most of those kind of lightbulb moments with, and look at what did they have in common? What were the struggles, how did they speak about their struggles? And all of those questions that I annoyingly ask everybody in the specialism workshop, you'll be able to answer all of those based on the clients that you've loved working with, so it just emerges over time. And once you've got that, that's when you amplify the audience, launch your online course, all of, all of that stuff. But it's just really lovely to hear you describing the self compassion, really giving yourself that time and space for that stuff to come slowly. Because that's where you're at right now, and that's, I wish more people had that attitude, and maybe it comes from knowing your Enneagram.

Maybe. It comes, it's honestly, it's very difficult and it's very intentional, I'm very aware of how much I need to be more compassionate towards myself. But I am enjoying it as well, and I think that's lucky. And I'm reminding myself all the time, because this is what I do in my work and this is why I tell other people, that there is no roadmap to success. And what success looks like for one person isn't the same as what it looks like for another person anyway. So it is absolutely pointless to start a private practice, to launch an online course, to do anything and have a particular idea in your head of where you should be or want to be, because you don't know that that's going to be possible. But I am, I did a workshop recently for the other coaches, the Enneagram coaches that trained through the same programme that I did, around values and building a values based business because there was so many conversations happening through some kind of group coaching calls that we had, and on the Facebook group about oh, I haven't achieved this yet, or I haven't achieved that yet, or I didn't meet this goal, and going I think we need to have a conversation as a community here about values versus goals really, and about this. And it was really well received, and I thought I could pad this out actually and help other people with it. So I have been trying to make it a little bit more than it was because I left a lot of time in this session as well for reflection and discussion so that it was me facilitating a space and not kind of expertly leading, to do I suppose it's a mini online course/workshop around this idea. At the beginning it was going to be about values in your business, but I broadened it out actually to just think about your work life more generally. That I... no I am going to do it, I'm going to put this online, maybe even by the time this podcast goes out, Rosie, but it's nearly done. I've set aside a time this week to do some recording. But that's going to be what's out there, and I think the more we... do you ever have this thing where you realise you've been telling other people the same thing, but you haven't been listening to it yourself? And I was kind of hit with this a few months ago, I was like, I've got to listen to my own advice. My own advice at the moment is chill out, if you're enjoying it, that's the main thing. And if you're not, or you're not getting to where you want to get to as quickly just you know, question your ideas of where you want to get to and how and why you want to get there, and think about that in terms of values and what else you can be achieving along the way so that you feel that sense, if you do need to feel that sense of success and pride in what you're doing, when you put, you put a lot of yourself into your own business, I realised just how much people put into, put of themselves just into the picture that you use on the front page of your website and how you describe yourself in a way that I've never realised before when I've read other people's web pages. And then as soon as I had to do my own, I was bricking it about how I was going to be seen. So to everybody out there who's put yourself on a webpage, well done. But you do pour so much of yourself into that, that of course you want to feel like you're getting some reward from that, but yeah, just there's so many different ways of getting that. And I'm trying to just be really, really happy with the way that I'm getting it right now.

I think it's such a good piece of advice for two reasons really. Firstly, because if you're not enjoying your practice right now, then what's the point in it? Because most of us, we could have jobs in the NHS or somewhere else, we could be full time if we're part time. We've chosen to do private work, because we wanted something, usually flexibility, work life balance, whatever you want to call it, but something. And if your practice is not delivering that for you right now, then don't do it. It doesn't, it doesn't make sense, and I really, I'm talking to my previous self really here, but it's like, don't create a business that you hate working in, because you could have that and have somebody else doing the admin, you've actually got to enjoy the work you're doing right now, not just live for the idea of the future, which I think we can be a bit prone to. But I also think it's really valuable, the idea of defining your own success that you mentioned, and allowing that to be your own definition. For me success is being able to do the school run. Like that's what I really wanted. And I've achieved that. And so why would I feel bad about the fact that I don't make as much money as my friend down the road, who's able to work, you know, much longer hours than I am? And, you know, therefore earns much more money, why would I feel bad about that? My success was being able to earn enough money for my family, while being able to do the school run. And I can do that, yay! I actually have to go and do that in a minute. But that, you know, I must never forget that that was the definition that I set myself. And I think we often do, we achieved something, and then just move on, our sights just change. And often, they go on to the shiny object that somebody else told us to chase, rather than what we set out what our values told us was important at the beginning,

Or achieve something and then think that there's... just sit there and don't see what else you could do. That's, that would be other Enneagram types that would fall more into the trap of just going yeah, this is fine. And not say well it might be fine, could it be better? And maybe not. And that's fine. But there's that constant awareness and questioning of okay, I've been here, I've been here for a while. Do I want anything to change? Nope, fine. But yes, okay, let's go. And that might look like not having to know much, but it might just be being caught up in the rat race of I've been doing things the same way for ages, and I haven't had that opportunity, like I said, was my NHS role, haven't had the opportunity to step out of that sit down and go hang on a minute. Do I want this to be the same? Or do I want it to change?

I feel like I desperately want to know my Enneagram type now. It's really difficult not to go and start looking up how I can get assessed. Well, actually, I should ask, because I'm sure there are lots of people listening to this, who are desperate to find out more, desperate to connect with you. So where can we find out more about you and the Enneagram, and how you work?

Yeah, so my website is enneagrampsychology.co.uk. I'm Enneagram Psychology on Facebook, and enneagrampsych on Instagram. I've got some pretty good summary posts on my Instagram page about the different types, and the different types in different situations. So for example, like ways, that I called it something like, there's lots of different ways to be an amazing parent and all the different strengths that can come out or amazing at work, or an amazing friend and things like that, as well as summaries of core motivations and things like that. The best way to find out your type is to read descriptions of the different types and see which ones seem to fit and definitely not fit with you. Narrow it down in the first instance. And then I honestly do think that listening to podcasts, listening to other people talk about what it's like to be different types when they've done some of that work and seeing what it is that really, that you really connect with is some of the best ways. It's really not about taking a test. You can take tests and there are some fairly alright free ones online as well as ones you can pay for, but they will give you ratings and numbers and tell you what likelihood it is that you're different types. But because it is such a complex model and because it is about your motivations, there's so many ways that that can go wrong and that you can be mis-typed. So I think it's really important that this is, because it is important, if you're going to know yourself you need to know yourself and not think you know yourself, so I really would recommend that people do a bit more reading and yeah listen to other people talk about what it's like to be them, or go to a coach and work through it with people and have conversations with someone who knows more about the whole model so that if people go 'well, I kind of thought I was this number but then I'm not quite so sure about that' that know some of the common reasons why that might be happening and can help you figure out a little bit more. I have a free typing guide on my, through my bio on my Instagram page, where you can download quite an easy overview of the different types again, and just ask you a couple of reflective questions to try and work out. And then there was a website called The Enneagram Institute that has so much information on there, if you're a big information person head there, and they if you're needing it a little bit more concise, head to my typing guide.

Amazing. So I'll put all of those links in the show notes, and I'm going to head over to Instagram straight after this, or after I've done the school run.

I was gonna say, you've gotta go get your kids.

It's been so helpful to talk to you, thank you so much for your time today. And I very much look forward to connect with you in the future, especially finding out what my Enneagram is.

Thanks Rosie, I look forward to finding out.

Thank you for listening to this week's episode of theBusiness of Psychology podcast. If you share my passion for doing more than therapy, then make sure you come over and join my free Do More Than Therapy Facebook community where you can work on getting your big ideas off the ground with like minded psychologists and therapists. I'd also love it if you could leave the show a five star review wherever you listen to your podcasts. It will help more of the people who need it to find it. See you next week for more tips and inspirational stories to help you do more than therapy.