Essential communication skills for psychologists and therapists with Jase Taylor

Today I’m here with Jase Taylor from Oxford Communication Skills. Jase is a communication skills expert and is also married to a Clinical psychologist so he has a lot of insight into what we do and has some really useful insights to help us amplify our messages around mental health.

The highlights

Jase tells us the interesting story behind his career, and how he became a communication skills expert 00:48
Jase talks about how we can train ourselves to be better communicators 10:51
Jase defines for us what he means by communication skills 13:06
Jase talks about when it is most important to get our communication right 16:38
We discuss being authentic, and how it has to be your message to be comfortable 18:19
Jase tells us what communication strengths he sees in mental health professionals 31:51
We talk about bringing out individual style and strengths, and the importance of this for diversity and inclusivity 36:04
Jase tells us what tips he would give if I was invited to do a TED talk tomorrow 42:21
Jase tells us how people can find him if they want to work with him 46:17

Links to find Jase

https://www.oxfordcommunicationskills.com

jase@oxfordcommunicationskills.com

Twitter & Instagram: @oxcommskills

https://www.instagram.com/oxcommskills/

https://twitter.com/OxCommSkills

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TRANSCRIPT

SPEAKERS

Rosie Gilderthorp, Jase Taylor

Rosie Gilderthorp 00:01

Welcome to the Business of Psychology podcast, the show that helps you to reach more people, help more people and build the life you want to live by doing more than therapy. Today, I’m here with Jase Taylor from Oxford Communication Skills. Jase is a communication skills expert, and is also married to a clinical psychologist. So he’s got a lot of insight into what we do and has some really useful ideas to help us amplify our messages around mental health. So welcome to the podcast, Jase. Before we get started, I know that you’ve got quite an interesting story behind your career. So could you tell us a little bit about how and why you became a communications expert?

Jase Taylor 00:48

It’s a slightly convoluted route. To be honest, I started off training as an engineer, software and algorithms engineer, all the way through A Levels, University and into a full time job. And communications was sort of part of that in the way that it’s part of a lot of jobs that people generally do, you have to deal with clients and colleagues and meetings and things. But in general, it wasn’t a front and centre aspect of it. But it was following a house move relocation, I found myself looking for kind of interesting evening activities. And I found a local branch of an international competition called Fame Lab, which has a bit of a cringe title, but it’s about science communication, and and scientists, researchers, academics, communicating, communicating their science to the public. So I so went along and just sat in the audience, and there were a dozen or so sort of PhD students or whatever, communicating their, their bit of research with with passion and excitement, and it was great, I loved it. And it’s an annual competition, I thought, well, maybe, maybe I can have a go, it doesn’t, doesn’t look too difficult. You know, it’s quite cheerful, positive, supportive audience. That sounds fun. So the following year, I applied and got through the first round, and then the second round, and, and I found myself in the grand final on a on a stage at a theatre in London, and came away as a runner up, and it was on the train home, really, with with my wife with sort of certificate in hand, and she just asked me quite bluntly, you’re quite good at this, is that a chance for you to do this, do more of this in your in your current job? Or if you get promotion? I thought for a moment, and the answer really was just no. And so the question then became well is it may be time to look for something that, that does let you do more of this. So that was, that moment was the catalyst really. And then within 10, or 11 days of that moment, I was on the phone, receiving a job offer to take up teaching at a secondary school, having so applied and whirlwind interview and all this stuff. And that kicked me off into teaching. And then I realised that teaching was just kind of a really lovely connection to this communication, I thought, well, maybe I could teach others how to communicate so that they can enjoy it as much as I do. And so that’s what I’ve been doing. I started off tutoring and mentoring subsequent rounds of competitors in Fame Lab here in the local heats and then getting involved with kind of national competitors to and it grew from there, dealing with people going off, and then it’s a springboard for people who want to go off and do some YouTube channels or TEDx talks, things like that.

Rosie Gilderthorp 03:28

That is so cool. Who knew there was a Fame Lab.

Jase Taylor 03:32

I know, I know. It’s not really like anything that you kind of come across in other aspects. There’s no, well as far as I’m aware, there’s no awards for communicating about, I don’t know, pick a subject. But, but here it is, science of communication. And I mean, let’s be honest, the last year, the last 18 months have shown if anything, the massive importance of being able to communicate accurate science well, to everybody, without misleading them, or confusing or overwhelming them. It’s, it’s so important, and lots of, I’m not detracting from people who do this, lots of people are very good at this, but it’s something that everybody can improve on, and it’s something that lots of people would really benefit from having more, more coaching on, of course.

Rosie Gilderthorp 04:21

Oh, it’s so true. I think my brain was turning over on this subject the other night, actually, because it struck me that there’s a huge difference in public perception at the moment, because we are recording this still in the middle of the pandemic. I feel like I’ve been saying that on this podcast for too long now.

Jase Taylor 04:38

You’ve noticed that the people have stopped saying it’s unprecedented because we’ve done we’ve got 18 months of precedent now.

Rosie Gilderthorp 04:46

Yeah, this thing we’re all very used to, but he’s a bit rubbish. And, and it yeah, it was really striking me that one of the government’s scientific advisors was not communicating the advice very well. And I was saying to my husband, like, oh my god, he needs to say this, he needs to say that. Because you know, knowing a little bit about behavioural science, and what gets a message through to people, I was like you’ve just confused the entire nation on a fairly simple point, really. However, contrasting that with some of the other advisors who are much better communicators, and it just felt like a Russian Roulette really, of who gets pulled out, and depends really what the public is going to be able to take away from it. So I completely agree with you, I think it could not be more important than it is right now. And in mental health, it’s, it’s just make or break for our clients, really, if you don’t understand the evidence base behind what you’re being presented with, you know, whether that’s CBT, or a medication that a psychiatrist might be recommending, if you don’t understand it, that’s not informed consent. It’s not ethical to do something that that the person on the other end of it doesn’t understand. And I think it happens far, far too often.

Jase Taylor 06:08

Yeah. And likewise, if you’re involved in some research, and you’ve got some fantastic new thing that’s tangibly going to help people, you need to be able to share it with your colleagues in a way that they’re going to get on board with, they’re going to understand the limitations but the power of it in an, in an accurate way, as you say, it’s informed consent, it then trickles down.

Rosie Gilderthorp 06:25

Yeah, absolutely. So I feel like I’m jumping into kind of how you can help us as a profession. But actually, before we get on to that, I wanted to know a little bit more about you, and kind of, you made it sound really linear and like it was always gonna happen this way for you, but actually, what got you into that Fame Lab, like some something must’ve hooked you, where you always secretly longing to do public speaking?

Jase Taylor 06:55

You know what, and I sort of don’t want to say this, because I really want to emphasise the fact that anybody can, can not just do this, but enjoy it. But I have to be honest, I suspect if, if I look back, there is a common thread, perhaps, albeit a very narrow one at stages, running through all the way back, you know, about a primary school kid who loved drama, right. And that was my main thing, but then, then became a teenager and that was all too embarrassing and stuff like that. But I was lucky enough to go to a school where we had a little tiny bit of this, we had a sort of poetry, learning and recycle competition in between out of our houses. And I went in mainly because I had a good memory for that kind of stuff. I was good at learning stuff. That’s what made me good at school, the speech and communication cycle is just kind of the context. But anyway, I did it, enjoyed it, because I did quite well, because I could remember it properly. And it just kind of, I guess planted the seeds. And then when I got to university, there was an exposition class, which was about, I did engineering, so it was about how do you communicate with clients or whatever. And it was just a terms cost the beginning of first year, but I loved it, it was great. And I suppose it just kind of very, very gradually snowballed. And when I got to my first full time job, I sort of found myself moving more towards client facing type jobs. Requirements capture, what do you need from this, this product or this report and delivering results. And that was, so I always knew I sort of enjoyed that person to person stuff in the bits of my life when I wasn’t busy being awkward or, or whatever. But I never really, in the same way that you mentioned that you wouldn’t imagine a thing like Fame Lab if you hadn’t heard about it, I don’t think I imagined a job doing just that. Not, not one that wasn’t being an actor, for example. So yeah, I, it kind of fed all the way through. And then I suppose again, it was another accidental connection. As I say, I was just looking for interesting evening activities to do in Oxford near where I live and found this the Fame Lab thing, oh that’s to do with science, I’ll go along. And again, the communications was just happy accident. But it just, just kind of connected to it again. And then as I say, after this conversation on the train, realise that perhaps teaching was was a good shout. That’s actually just how good a shout it really is. They essentially, they pay me and they give me a captive audience, it’s great. And obviously, there’s more to it than that. And my students are really great. But yeah, it perhaps it has been just that underlying theme all the way through.

Rosie Gilderthorp 09:30

Yeah, it’s so interesting, isn’t it when you look back, and you can kind of see that even at the time when you feel like you’re jumping all over the place. And I know there was definitely a period in my life where I felt like, why am I jumping from this career into this one and what is going on here? And it’s only now things have settled a little bit that I can kind of look back and be like, well, this interest or like this skill set kind of does flow all the way through because now I started out, studying English and being really into drama, and you know, took a bit of a strange route to where I’m at. And yeah, it’s, it’s interesting for you kind of that communication aspect of it was always there it might have just been hiding or coming out in different ways in different roles. So do you think then that people who might be listening to this who maybe they really don’t have that, maybe the idea of communicating, particularly the public speaking side, is something that has always made them feel really sick? You know, they might be kind of getting some palpitations now just thinking about it? Can those of us who feel that way, train ourselves to be better communicators? Or is it more something that you’re kind of born with?

Jase Taylor 10:51

You can, you definitely can. That is my firm thesis. I totally understand that, that sense of reluctance and nervousness about it. And in spite of what I’ve said, I said it rather flippantly, I remember times in my life where I would not at all have been confident and comfortable, saying yes, I enjoy communicating, I’m a good communicator, so I remember it firsthand, as well. But yes, you can, you can learn the skills. And you know, I see this at school, I see students who, and I teach maths and computer science, and maths is definitely one of those things where people say, oh, I hated math, I’m never good at it. And, and somewhere in there is that similar nugget of discomfort, and it sort of feeds back on itself, it’s, you know, I’m not very confident at it, I don’t really enjoy it, so I don’t, I don’t put myself in situations where, or find myself in situations where I can really succeed in a big way. And that never gives me the positive omph to have another go. And so part of the craft of teaching is, is encouraging that as much as we can. So, yes, you can learn it, but just as with teaching, it’s helpful to have someone who, who kind of knows the ropes, who, you know, it’s fine, I know how to solve this equation, I’m going to explain it to you. And that’s where people like me, again, another job, I didn’t realise existed, but I can, I can sort of see what where your nervousness lies and where your strengths are, even if you don’t have a sense of them yourself, and help you kind of bring them out, and in that way, you you earn your own confidence. It’s not like I’m kind of sticking it on you like a label, you it might take a bit longer, but you earn your own. And that I think really works.

Rosie Gilderthorp 12:29

And I’m sure, your wife Rebecca says this all the time, that that is so similar to what we do in therapy for people, because you often meet people who don’t think there’s any hope for them. And they think, you know, I’m a broken person, I’m a terrible person, there’s nothing in me, and you just help them see their own strengths. And yeah, it sounds like a really similar and powerful process, I imagine quite a fulfilling way of working.

Jase Taylor 12:54

Absolutely. It’s funny, you know, you’re right, we have had those conversations. But, but I’m struck again, by that comparison you’ve just made, it it is there’s a lot of a lot of similarity and parallels there. That’s true.

Rosie Gilderthorp 13:06

So, I mean, we’ve been talking about it a little bit already. But can you kind of define for us what you really mean by communication skills?

Jase Taylor 13:16

It’s such a broad church as well, because there are those for whom it means giving a PowerPoint presentation. And within that there are lots of people for whom it means the PowerPoint itself, you know, have I got the right details, right? Diagrams, too much information, too little information. There are others for whom it means standing in front of a lectern at an academic conference, or an industry exhibition. There are others for whom it just means that conversation in a in a therapy session over zoom or in an office, there are those who mean something to do with public performance. So it’s it’s broad. Now, there are lots of similar themes across all of them, but perhaps they they get manifested in different ways, depending on context. So I mean, perhaps you’re better placed than I am to, to assume what it means for your audience. What is so, what do you feel it would mean to to some notional members of your audience?

Rosie Gilderthorp 14:12

Well, I was thinking about this before we came on, actually, and I think there’s a few different spheres that seem to require different skills of us. So there’s the one on one communication, which, you know, it could be within a therapy session with a client’s needing to, as we were discussing before, explain stuff, like the rationale for an intervention, or I’ve got clients who want to know quite a lot about the evidence base, but they might not have a scientific background, so sort of distilling that information for one individual. But there’s also kind of team meetings, you know, whether that’s, in my practice I’ve got a small team of people who work with me, but I suppose I employ them, so I’m in kind of a position of power in those meetings, but I I also remember from my NHS work, being in huge MDTs, with much more confusing hierarchies and needing to communicate in a totally different way there. And then, of course, a lot of us do do some some kind of teaching or public speaking, where we need that more behind the lectern trying to engage a wider group of people. So, yeah, I can think of lots of different contexts, and they all seem to require slightly different skills.

Jase Taylor 15:31

That’s true. I agree. And yet, there’s that, as you say, there’s that common theme behind them. And I think in all of those cases, I can think back to big multidisciplinary team meetings that with with bosses and clients, and the most memorable people in those meetings still now are the ones who could talk to any and all of us in a way that didn’t make any of us feel like any of the things we were supposedly were. They were the ones who you didn’t hear the title or the authority. You just heard the kind of person, you heard the human behind it. And I think that’s that’s surely got to be a winner in all the contexts that either of us can think up.

Rosie Gilderthorp 16:06

Yeah, yeah, that seems like if you can crystallise that, if you could just tell me how to do that, actually, that’d be great.

Jase Taylor 16:13

I’ll send you a bill.

Rosie Gilderthorp 16:14

Fabulous. Yeah, we can agree on that one. So I think we’ve come up with a few there, but can you think of any situations in which it’s particularly crucial for us as business owners and mental health professionals to get our communication right? When do we need our skills the most?

Jase Taylor 16:38

I’m going to pick up on on one or two that you’ve mentioned, in particular. I think the need the notion of informed consent, the clues in the name really, to get consent, you need to inform the person. And, and being able to express, you know, really kind of hard statistical sciencey end of it, but also what that, what that’s going to mean for the person, these are the benefits that we hope it’s going to bring for you. These are the things it’s going to entail from you the commitment, these are things you’re going to hear me saying they might make you feel uncomfortable, all of that stuff. And I’m not a therapist, I can only scratch the surface of it. But I think that’s probably front and centre for anyone who’s doing therapy. But also on a broader kind of responsibility scale. If you’re trying to disseminate findings from research that you’re involved with, as a clinician or whatever, if you’re trying to, if you’ve found a thing that’s going to tangibly change and improve people’s lives, people’s outcomes, you, you want to and you need to be able to share that with your colleagues and with the wider, the wider industry in a way that is fair, and objective. And, you know, here are the limitations, here are the requirements, we haven’t tested this yet. And yet, still communicate the fact that I think this is going to help people guys, you know, this is going to make a difference, and feel that human passion and excitement behind it. It’s yeah, I mean, I’m describing lots of things I’m making sound quite complex, but at the heart of it sits that human connection, and that authenticity. And that’s potentially one of the most intimidating things to try and set up even if you are a professional therapist.

Rosie Gilderthorp 18:19

Yeah, and I think there’s often a bit of a tension between what we’ve been brought up to believe as professional versus what we feel is authentic and truly connecting with people. And, you know, on this podcast, I talk a lot about that tension, because it’s expressed for many of us in our social media presence. Y’know how engaging can you be if you’re scared of being the real you. I’ve done interviews with video experts and Instagram experts, and very much the the message that’s communicated is you’ve got to, you’ve got to really be you, you’ve got to bring your energy, you’ve got to bring personal stories. And if you don’t do that, you’re not going to be able to connect with people in the way that you want to. And I’d say that’s probably the number one message that I get pushback about. In the Do More Than Therapy community and in my inbox, it’s usually people being very, very fearful of revealing too much. And of course, as you know, there is, there are ways of working which really don’t sit with that. And I think you know, if you are running a psychodynamic, informed practice, or I’m sure there are other forms of therapy that I don’t know very much about that also require a blank slate from the therapist, then, of course, you’ve got to consider that when you think about your communication strategy, when you think about your marketing, you’ve really got to think about that. But the majority of us who are not working in that way actually I quite passionately, quite passionately believe that we need to be connecting with people outside of the clients that we work with and trying to make a bigger impact by getting our our message out there authentically, but it can be a massive tension for people.

Jase Taylor 20:19

Absolutely. And even within one of the examples you mentioned, there’s there’s a, perhaps a contradiction you mentioned Instagram, and people who work on Instagram are… Now Instagram is kind of famed for being a place where people present a facade of themselves. I’m thinking about the kind of the big influencers, not everybody, of course, but there’s y’know there’s this sense that, whether we know it and accept it or not, or just kind of cognitive dissonance, what we’re being shown is, is not actual reality, even if it’s got a picture of their actual dog in it, or they really are on holiday, or they really do look that good in a red dress. Like, we know it’s not, it’s not authentic communication, it’s, it’s agenda to communication. And I think, yeah, you can, you can find other people who are presenting more more realistic, more human connections, and it feels quite different, I think we can detect it, we just sometimes, you know, it’s like TV it’s willing suspension of disbelief, I know, these people aren’t really there in that forest being hunted by this monster, but I’m still having the emotional response anyway. And the thing you said there about, about what you say and feeling having you saying a certain thing or not saying a certain thing, I think you have to be true to your message. And that this is kind of tapping into where, where I come in. If you can get your message clear and stick to it, then you’re going to be on the right track. But if you find yourself trying to present the message that you think you’re supposed to present, then you’re going to end up with an audience that isn’t really yours, and aren’t really listening to you. They’re just listening to what you’re repeating from from elsewhere. And that’s, I think, to be comfortable, it has to be your message, your words.

Rosie Gilderthorp 22:02

That is so interesting, actually, because I’m thinking back in my head to times when I’ve really messed up. Because people sometimes think that I’m alright at public speaking, I’ve done I’ve done a few things. Funny, I’ve got a similar story to you actually about just rocking up at like a pitching competition once a few years ago, and being like, weirdly, I’m quite good at this and changing my whole career as a result. But that’s a story for another day. But But people sometimes think that I’m quite good at it. But there will be people out there, and maybe some of them listen to this podcast, who have seen me not just crash and burn, but like cataclysmically crash and burn. Because one thing I’ve noticed about myself is that if I don’t believe it, I can’t say it. I won’t remember it. It’s very tangible, really the difference. I remember I was once asked to give a talk, and it wasn’t my talk. And it was about shyness in children, I don’t really work with children, I felt like I didn’t know what I was talking about, the person who was meant to be giving the talk was was ill and I was just sort of drafted in like, oh, you’re a psychologist, can you speak on this? And I don’t know why I said yes. I said yes, I suppose because I was very junior and it, power dynamics and all the rest of it, shouldn’t have. Because it turned out I just didn’t get it. I didn’t get it. I didn’t, it wasn’t that I didn’t understand it perhaps, it was more than it wasn’t a message I would have wanted to communicate. It was terrible. It was terrible. Even my friends in that room were like, whoa, that was bad, let us buy you a cup of tea.

Jase Taylor 23:43

It’s funny. And I think deep down we all, whether we’ve actually lived them or whether we’re just, you know, making up in our imagination and worrying about them in advance, we’ve all sort of, we know what you’re saying. I’ve been there. I’ve been on stage. I’ve been on stage at that final I mentioned, froze, forgot what I was saying, that’s not quite the same thing as as not feeling the passion, it’s the nerves and the overwhelming moment. But it happens to us. And it wasn’t the first time I’ve frozen the very first round. And actually, my second round piece was about human memory fallibility, as a result, you know, I forgot something. So why did I forget it? Anyway, I got to the third round, forget it again, but because I was prepared, and here’s, here’s one of my many kind of gems, because I’d done it before I was prepared, and I had a throwaway line of saying, oh, you know, my last piece was about memory fallibility would you believe it? And everybody chuckled, and that just gave me a few seconds, which of course felt like millennia, a few seconds to remember where it was, right carry on. So we’ve all been there. There are even now at a smaller scale there are lessons why that was such a rubbish explanation. Why did I try that? But you tap onto a really, really key point, and this is kind of one of my most important artefacts of how this all works. I think the message, the thing you’re trying to say is only the first stage and I kind of separate it into four stages. So you’ve got you kind of figured out what you want to say, but the second stage is figuring out how you’re going to say it. I call it the script, you’ve got message and the script. When I went to some of the training myself as part of that Fame Lab competition ahead of the finals, we all sat down, there were 10 or 12 of us, and we all sat down, we brought our scripts with us. And we, we all swapped them round, this was activity kind of to break us in, and we all had to go presenting someone else’s. And it was, it was 12 terrible deliveries, because we’d written our scripts, not just around our message, but to fit us, our styles, our voices, as well. And you know, right, even down to those of us who stage managed them, right, you know, pause here, move here. It all fell flat. And exactly as you’re describing, for an hour we were sat there going, oh, and the worst, the worst was when you had to sit and listen to someone else give your talk, and drive it into a wall and go, oh, that was so funny when I did it. That was a joke there. But yeah, and and, yeah, it’s so true. But behind that is a real, really important phenomenon. This this, this fear that I think it breeds is that we’re going to get onstage or in front of the camera, or just next, the person in the chair in the therapy room, and we’re going to blunder it and we’re going to say something we shouldn’t, or something that’s going to make it worse, or just something that was a bit like ah sounded a bit dumb saying that, you know, that fear is really paralysing. And because this is a thing you can sort of brush under the rug to an extent, you can kind of avoid someone you know, that’s not my thing. If I get invited to ask to speak, I’ll just say I know it’s not my thing, I’ll do the poster. Y’know, you can kind of avoid it to an extent, but only to an extent. And I’m not saying people who don’t engage with this training are bad therapists. Not at all. But I recognise I feel that fear of, oh, I’m not gonna ever go in case it’s a bit dodge, like, well, come to a teacher come to someone who says, yeah, I’ve been there. And this is the way out.

Rosie Gilderthorp 26:58

And it is sort of that exposure, isn’t it? It’s, it’s like, if you never messed up, he never would have realised that you could save yourself. Because, you know, not in that example I gave where I just crash and burned and then left in a puddle of shame. But plenty of other times actually, like that pitching competition that I did, I couldn’t get the clicker to work, you know when you’re so nervous you lose your coordination, I couldn’t get it to work, and I obviously needed it to continue with the presentation. But because I was in that case, really sure of the message that I was delivering, really passionate about getting it out there, I managed to kind of style that one out and be like, I’ll just have, can I have a volunteer from the audience to come and click this for me? Yeah, everyone saw through it, they knew I’d messed up, and it was timed, so… But but at the same time I think people are very forgiving. And you learn that by doing it. And by yeah, messing up and then seeing that there’s compassion in most people. And if there’s not, who cares about them?

Jase Taylor 28:05

Yeah, that’s one of the core messages when I’m doing that that particular area of training is the audience are with you. It might not feel like they are, but you can guarantee. Just just imagine, put yourself in the audience and someone froze, how would you feel? You’d feel like, hh, go on, go on, you can do it. That’s how every audience feels like that, really. Because we’re all humans, none of us sit well, with, with awkwardness, do we? So yeah, they’re on your side.

Rosie Gilderthorp 28:30

Yeah, I mean, and you have to, you have to put yourself out there to get to that point. And I do think I think you’ve got a really good point there that, actually, although you can avoid it, and I know lots of people that do, actually, if you’re in private practice, which a lot of people listening to this are, you are really putting a ceiling on what you’re going to achieve in your practice, if you won’t get up at a networking meeting and introduce yourself, for example. Now I spent a year going to networking meetings and when they do that two minute elevator pitch I’d be in the bathroom. I spent a year doing that. So believe me like If that’s you, you’ve got my, you’ve got my deep empathy, I completely get it. But stopping doing that is really important for your practice. Because in order to earn the fees that you deserve, that we deserve as a profession, you have to be out there communicating your competence. Terrifying I know, but also your humanity because that is what’s going to get you the reputation and the referrals that allow you to command what you’re worth. From behind your computer, never saying anything to anybody, you’re going to have to accept the really low fees that might come through counselling directory, or insurance referrals. So yeah, I’m bit hardline on that.

Jase Taylor 29:52

No, you’re right. And this is perhaps a really nice collision of teaching and psychology, you know, teaching these days there’s a lot more science behind it than you might expect. Talking about concepts of kind of zone of maximal development, and actually the best place to be to learn, which is the point of school, you know that we might, they might not want to hear it, but it is true, the point of school is to learn. And if you’re going to do that optimally, then you have to be just outside your comfort zone otherwise your’re just going to cruise along. And you know, when, of course, we will do it, because it’s comfortable there, we like it. But if your office is your comfort zone, then sometimes you do need to step out and to make those mistakes as well. Again, another bit of neuroscience and teaching, the the amount of time you spend dwelling on something, thinking something over is proportional to how well and how effectively and permanently you learn it. And a guaranteed way to make you spend some time thinking about it something is to do it wrong the first time. Because then you stop and think, what, hang on first data, oh, maybe, second stage hopefully? Or er still not sure can you help? It just makes you dwell on it and doing something right is 10 times quicker. But therefore, I’d argue 10 times less effective, you got to do 10 times more of that, to get you in approximately the same benefits. So and it you know, it’s it’s an old message of a teacher saying, you know, there’s no wrong answers here. You know, getting it wrong is just as good as getting it right, and everyone’s like, yeah, right, especially in math where there is objectively a right answer. And yet, it is so important. And the same is true for for communicating unless you’re getting out there and, and, you know, making some of those mistakes, big and small, you’re not gonna learn from them.

Rosie Gilderthorp 31:30

Yeah, that’s a really good point. And we’re probably more receptive to it now than we were at school. I remember hating to hear that. But actually, now it makes a lot more sense. So, you know, thinking about a strengths based perspective, you know, what strengths do you typically see in mental health professionals? I’m guessing, you know, quite a lot of us.

Jase Taylor 31:51

I know enough to perhaps make a few conclusions. Yeah. I think, well, and I was going to mention this earlier, that this sense of just being at ease with conversation. And that sounds, that’s totally irrelevant, that’s nothing to do with communicating, especially not performing. But actually, I think the best communication does boil down to a conversation, can even sound like a conversation. And I think that is a huge strength for therapists and psychologists; you’re used to dealing with people, you understand people, you know, my wife, she figures out things about people about me that, you know, it’s, it’s incredible. It really is. And I think that’s, that’s true of therapists, they, they get how people tick, and, and understanding, understanding your audience is one of the absolute fundamental foundations of communicating effectively. And if you’re good at understanding an audience, be it one person or 100, that’s a huge, you know, arrow in your quiver, you’ve really got to use that, being comfortable with just chatting y’know. Yeah, there are some big strengths. And they probably don’t feel like strengths. But they are, they are, you know, real hard ones to get right if you’re not well practised at it. And as I say, they don’t have to be natural, innate talents. But they are, they are just like muscles, they do respond to practice. So spending years doing this professionally, days a week, weeks a year, you’re gonna get better at it, even if you don’t realise it. And you’re going to build that conference. Oh, this is just like a therapy session, right, of I go.

Rosie Gilderthorp 33:24

That is really interesting because I think one of the experiences in my career, which I think a lot of people listening to this will have, will have also had is that often you start out teaching group programmes, and I was teaching anger management in the prison service. And as you might imagine, we had to spend a lot of time, and I was 20, 21, yeah, I mean, not sure about the whole framework of that. But I was teaching adult men, I was 21 years old, teaching anger management. And as you might be able to tell, I was a very shy young person, a lot less confident than I am now, in fact, and one of the skills I had to learn really quickly was called rolling with resistance. And it was about never arguing, like, if they said something like, this is an effing waste of time, you would not say it’s not, you would say, okay, it kind of is. Like, it is a waste of time at the moment, because clearly you’re not engaging with it, so what can we do about this, like tell me more about what’s so rubbish about it, and we’ll kind of try and build from there. And I got really good at that. Because I didn’t, I didn’t have… the way we were trained, actually, by the prison staff was often to try and be really energetic to try and have like the booming presence kind of thing. Well, I was never going to pull that off. And neither we’re about 50% of us. Yeah, yeah. So it changed loads. It changed dramatically. Between 2008 and 2011, the way people were trained to do that role changed hugely. So 2008, it was all about, you know, hit the table if you need to command attention. By 2011, it was all about this kind of rolling with resistance, building rapport, and it probably mattered dramatically, who was taking your training, as well. But yeah, so I learned I couldn’t be that style of communicator, I could never be the hitting the table, I could never be the kind of getting in people’s faces communicator. But what I could do really well, was listen, and respect people. And if they came back with something that was uncomfortable for me, I felt able to just step back and process and try and think, before I responded, and that is what helps me the most now, when I’m speaking to bigger groups. It’s that confidence that you know, if you heckle me, if you chuck something at me, I’m not expecting, my brain is still here. I’ll just think about it. And then I’ll respond, and if I don’t know, I’ll say I don’t know.

Jase Taylor 36:04

And you’ve hit on something we haven’t really touched on really, but communication is is two way, a lot of what I’m saying is talking about the you speaking part of it, but the you listening part is, especially in therapy, is you know, is no less perhaps more important. So being a good, a good listener to what’s being said and what’s not being said. I think, yeah, that’s another huge advantage. It’s really interesting, sorry, it’s really interesting you mentioned that kind of personal style. You’re presaging another excellent point here. Yes, the job you were being asked to do and all of you who were being trained to do that job, the job is on the surface sort of similar, but you are all different people and you all have your own communication styles, there’s something that works for me isn’t going to work for you like like in that room with with 12 terrible presentations that were written for each other. It’s deeper than that. It’s your it’s your style. And you can see my webcam, I’m a gesturer. I’m flailing all over the place.

Rosie Gilderthorp 37:02

It’s really energetic.

Jase Taylor 37:04

It’s a miracle, I haven’t thwacked the microphone across the other side of the room. But that’s, that’s me gives me flow, it gives me direction. And when I’m on stage, I think that’s one of the things that worked well for me. And you can use place and movement and expression to communicate so much more, we’ve seen all this stuff like 80% of body language, blah, blah, blah, somewhere in there is the nugget of usable truth. But that’s really good. Even communication skills training often falls guilty to trying to make everyone be you know, this can be… you are Brian Cox off you go, you are Professor Brian Cox off you go, like a machine. He’s great, by the way, but he’s not the only, he’s not the only choice. And I think if anything, that’s that’s doomed to let almost everybody except for prime Professor Brian Cox down, I think you have to, you can only ever become really effective and comfortable if you’re being trained and coached to be good at the things you, y’know, you’re you’re naturally good at or you’re willing to learn to be good at, everyone’s gonna have their own style, trying to look at someone else and emulate that style is not the whole picture. It’s like you mentioned early on with Instagram, again, if you’re, if you’re looking at communicators, or people wearing clothes, or makeup, or whatever it is. That’s that’s their picture. That’s not your picture, your picture, but just because you can’t fully see it yet is harder to imagine. But But if anything, it’s it’s better. And it’s certainly better for you. It’s in yeah.

Rosie Gilderthorp 38:30

I just think that’s such an important point when we’re thinking about, you know, diversity and inclusivity. Because I, again, I’ve got so many examples. But I do remember when I did my Army Reserve training, and I did a briefing, and the feedback was that I needed to make my voice lower and deeper specifically, and that I needed to use the Sandhurst chop more often. And for anyone who doesn’t know, can’t see the video, I am gesturing with my hand in a forward motion, like a karate chop in front of me where you’re supposed to emphasise points with your hand. And, and I said no to both of those points, because I felt I was being asked to act like a man, which of course is exactly what I was being asked. Yeah. But I think that’s the point that you were making there. It’s it’s like a loss of communication skills training, historically has actually been about turning us all into white middle class men. And if that’s not what we want anymore, we actually we need people like you coming in and bringing out the strengths of people as they find them rather than imposing a cardboard cutout.

Jase Taylor 39:51

And it’s dreadfully reductive as well, there are some stories that that stereotype you just can’t carry. You know, that there are some messages that that style just can’t deliver with any believability or passion. Yeah. And there are stories that need telling that can’t be delivered that way. And so what’s the problem? You don’t tell the stories? Well, that’s the problem all too often, isn’t it? No, no, no. Tell the story in a way that that story’s got to be told.

Rosie Gilderthorp 40:19

And if our young people are being given that message, like, oh, yeah, well, we want to hear what you’ve got to say about, you know, your heritage or something that you’ve been through or an experience, but could you please put it into this format, which is essentially white, middle class and male, and they don’t feel able to do that, then they’re going to walk away from the stage. And I think when we say, oh, you know, we don’t know why we’re not getting enough people from ethnic minorities in this job or that job, it’s like, well, they’re not going to apply, because it’s probably heard so many times that, that they need to change themselves fundamentally in order to be heard. Yeah, so we’ve been on a bit of a rant there, but I just really love what you’re saying about making this kind of an individual journey and finding your way of communicating.

Jase Taylor 41:07

And we’ve all experienced and heard what it’s like when someone isn’t doing that. I mean, we talked about you mentioned those, those COVID briefings with the scientists, but the person next to them, the politician, shut your eyes take away their specific voice. It’s the same, it’s the same message. It’s certainly the same script. It’s basically the same voice. And worse than that, it’s not the best voice it might, you know, those briefings? I think you could get so many more people on side, you could help them see the necessity. And yes, the the really terrible compromises having to be made. But you could get them on side, think yeah, this is rubbish, but I see where you want us to be. Thay could do that so much better than they are at the moment. And it’s, it’s just so appalling that, yes, lives are being lost as a result of not great, not quite perfect communication. And I know we’re all humans, perfection is not the target here, but I’m sure it could be done better couldn’t it?

Rosie Gilderthorp 42:09

You’re so polite. Of course, yes. It could be done better. This is not a political podcast, but I think we can probably all agree there’s always room for improvement. So I think, you know, I’ve taken up loads of your time, and you’ve given us so much value already, but I am gonna put you on the spot slightly. So imagine that TED rang me up. And you know, I’m available TED, if you’re listening, I’ll come and do a talk for you, if you really want me to. But say TED did did ring me up and I was panicking. And I called you up and said, right, can you give me some top tips? I’ve got to do a TED talk tomorrow, and I’m really nervous about it. What would your top tips be?

Jase Taylor 42:53

I’m desperately trying to find the notes I made. I worked with a TEDx speaker once and it was is a lovely, big, but very intimidating kettle of fish. Timing. One thing that stands out from TED in particular, and yes, it’s unique to that problem, but it’s a broader thing as well. Timing can be your friend and your enemy, you might look at three minutes and think that’s not enough. And then look at 20 minutes on a TED stage and think that’s a bit much. It’s essentially never going to feel the right amount of time, because it’ll feel too big to fill, and then you’re on stage, you think, oh, I’ve only got eight seconds left. Kind of don’t worry, because you can’t change the passage of time. You can kind of train yourself to not whizz through something too quickly and not go through it too slowly. But there’s only so much you can control. The way to respond to that is practice; time it, time it in front of an audience, time in front of strangers, go to a shopping arcade when you know, people are back outside again, bother people, bother friends, family, whatever, practice it. And that will give you a sense of time things you can cut things you can add in. Be really clear on your message. A TED is yeah, we talk about this as the pinnacle of communication. And you mentioned the elevator pitch. This is one of those core tenets. Whoever your audience is when they get home in the evening, or they’re on the bus on the way home or something sat next to their friend or their partner or whatever. And they say, what was that thing about today, then and they go… What do you want them to say? Because that’s where you start. You don’t start with the funky graphics or the catchy end line from those days though those are, you start with what’s the what’s the essence of my message. I do this activity with with training groups. I tell them a story. Just you know, a fictional story. Say right you retell that story to the person in 30 seconds, then 20, then 10, then five seconds. All stories boil down to either a point or a joke, essentially, a fable. If you can, if you can grab the fable that’s inside what you want to say, then you start there and craft your message there. And the other thing it’s connected to practice, but I guess it’s record yourself. Get feedback from other people, but also from yourself at a different time. See it the next morning, think oh wish I hadn’t said that. And and I can’t let this question go without saying it, but also come to someone else like me, who is kind of almost been there on that same stage, and can give you, why try this? And have you thought about that?

Rosie Gilderthorp 45:17

Yeah, I mean, that seems really, really valuable to be honest. Because I, you know, I completely get what you’re saying about recording yourself. But equally, there will be people like me, who really struggled to listen to themselves back and be objective about it. I think we were talking before we started recording about how sometimes when you’re listening to your own voice, all you can hear is, oh, I hate my accent on that word, or, oh, that speech impediment that I thought I got rid of, it’s still there. And you notice things and zoom in on things, which then take your focus away from the stuff the audience is actually going to pay attention to. And I think having somebody else look a bit more objectively at what you’re doing, and give you feedback that is more similar to what the rest of the world is actually going to see, I think would be really, really valuable. So Jase, if people are listening to this, and they’re thinking, you know, I’ve got something coming up. And I’d really like some advice and coaching on it. How can people find you if they want to work with you?

Jase Taylor 46:17

First port of call, drop me an email, I am Jase@oxfordcommunicationskills.com, and obviously the website there behind it. You’ll also find me venturing tentatively onto Instagram at oxcommskills. And I’m also hoping to launch, you’ll see it through there, an online course, hopefully later in the year, that’s going to kind of lay out the general lessons as in as much detail as I can, that you’ll be able to buy into an access. But even then, I still think that the coaching, the personalised connection is what allows me to, to take those skills and see how they’re gonna fit for you and work for you.

Rosie Gilderthorp 46:57

Now, that sounds brilliant, and we’ll keep an eye on what you’ve got coming up. And I will put all of the links in the show notes so that people can just swipe up and get straight through to your page there. Thank you so much for your time.

Jase Taylor 47:09

My pleasure.

Rosie Gilderthorp 47:11

Before you go, I just wanted to check something out with you. Because I don’t know if this is just me. But do you sometimes wake up at two o’clock in the morning, worried that you’ve made a terrible error that’s going to bring professional ruin upon you and disgrace your family? I’m laughing now. But when I first set up in private practice, I was completely terrified that I’d missed something really big when I was setting up my insurance or data protection practices. Even now, three years in, I sometimes catch myself wondering if I’ve really covered all the bases properly. And it’s hard. No, actually, it’s impossible to think creatively and have the impact you should be having in your practice if you aren’t confident that you have a secure business underneath you. But it can be really overwhelming to figure out exactly what you need to prioritise before those clients start coming in. So I’ve created a free checklist plus resources list to take the thinking out of it. Tick off every box and you can see your clients confident in the knowledge that you have everything in place for your security and theirs. You can download it now from psychologist.drrosie.co.uk/client-checklist, and the link is in the show notes.

Rosie Gilderthorp 48:24

Thank you for listening to this week’s episode of the business of psychology podcast. If you share my passion for doing more than therapy, then make sure you come over and join my free Do More Than Therapy Facebook community where you can work on getting your big ideas off the ground with like minded psychologists and therapists. I’d also love it if you could leave the show a five star review wherever you listen to your podcasts. It will help more of the people who need it to find it. See you next week for more tips and inspirational stories to help you do more than therapy.