How to run a thriving Facebook group with Sam Hill, Community Manager
I’m here today with Sam Hill. Many of you will know Sam as she is the community manager for us in the free Do More Than Therapy community, Psychology Business School and the DMTT members group. Sam has built her own business around helping peoples’ communities to thrive. It is a real skill and she is here to share with us the secrets of a group that gets people talking.
The highlights
- Sam tells us how she came to be a community manager, and what that is 01:06
- Sam talks about how we can measure if a group is doing well, if it’s thriving 02:58
- We discuss engagement and how to get your posts seen and commented on 04:02
- I ask Sam what some of the common mistakes are when setting up a group for the first time 09:49
- We talk about rules, and Sam tells us why we need them 10:38
- Sam tells us to use questions for joining a group, and to be strict about it 12:46
- We talk about using the questions to get people on our email list 14:01
- Sam tells us which rules are the most important to stick to 17:31
- Sam explains how to use units/guides to organise our group 22:03
- Sam talk about the importance of cornerstone content 23:46
- We discuss pop-up groups and how they can be successful 29:05
- We talk about the time needed to run a group and whether you need a community online 36:21
- I ask Sam how people make the decision to bring in a community manager, and what they can get help with 39:56
- We discuss risk management, having a disclosure in your rules, and a fairplay agreement 44:29
- We talk about outsourcing your social media in general, and who should post what 48:03
Links to find Sam
https://www.facebook.com/groups/975281076155451
https://www.instagram.com/samantha_j_hill/
Links to other podcasts referenced:
Don’t set goals without a clear vision, values and mission! Why psychologists and therapists usually fail at goal setting and how to plan better: https://psychologists.drrosie.co.uk/the-business-of-psychology/vision-values-and-mission-psychologists-and-therapists-goal-setting/
3 Ways to Use Facebook for Psychologists and Therapists:
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TRANSCRIPT
SPEAKERS
Rosie Gilderthorp, Sam Hill
Rosie Gilderthorp 00:01
Welcome to the business of psychology podcast, the show that helps you to reach more people, help more people, and build the life you want to live by doing more than therapy. I’m here today with Sam Hill, many of you will know Sam, as she’s the Community Manager for us in the free Do More Than Therapy community, Psychology Business School, and the Do More Than Therapy members group. So we keep her really, really busy. Sam has built her business around helping people’s communities to thrive. It’s a real skill, and she’s here to share with us the secret of the group that gets people talking. So welcome to the podcast, Sam. I’ve been trying to get Sam on here for ages. Because when we first met, I had absolutely no idea what a community manager was, or why anybody would want one. But now I absolutely could not be without you, Sam. So why don’t we get started with you telling us a little bit about how you came to be a community manager and what that is.
Sam Hill 01:06
Okay, so, um, I used to run wool shops, I had a knitting business for 11 years. And I built up a really strong, thriving community from that business. When I sold the business, I realised that was kind of what I was good at. And what I missed most about the business was the community. So I had the opportunity to look after my business coach at the times community Janet Murray, she’s become like, one of one of my main clients. And yeah, so I that’s what I do full time now is help business owners like Rosie to build communities. Essentially, what I think Community Manager is, is customer service online. That’s how I describe it, if people don’t understand.
Rosie Gilderthorp 01:54
That’s a really great way of describing it, because it, it makes people in my experience anyway, since having you on board, it’s really helped people to feel looked after. And like we’re kind of more on the ball than I could be on my own.
Sam Hill 02:07
Yeah, I look af… yeah I look after people, care for them, make sure they’re happy.
Rosie Gilderthorp 02:13
And I know that there’s a lot of people listening to this podcast, who want to create a Facebook group, or some other kind of online community, because they’re thinking about, you know, selling a product or a service that needs quite big audience. And in some of the previous episodes, I’ve recorded about Facebook, I’m pretty sold, that if you’re on Facebook, a group is the way to do that. But there are groups and there are groups, right? And you can spend a lot of time getting nowhere with a group if you don’t really know what you’re doing with it. So we love data in the psychology community, you know this. How can we how can we tell how can we measure if a group is doing well if it’s thriving?
Sam Hill 02:58
So what I look at first is the insights. So if you’re, if you’ve got your community on Facebook, which is where yours is, there’s an insights in there, which is really helpful, and that will show you the first thing you want to look at is the engagement figure. So if people are engaging, you’re doing something, right. It’s not about numbers, don’t get hung up on vanity numbers, you can have 50 people all talking to each other. That’s brilliant, you could have 50,000, and your engagement be super low. So that’s like the main thing you want to look at. The other one is active member rate, which you’ll know I put in your report every month. So that tells you who’s looked or seen or commented on any comments at all. That’s really important, because as your group gets bigger, you’ll find that it, that gets a little bit lower, because lots of people don’t see everything that’s in the group. So that’s kind of where you need to start with, with the insights and data stats.
Rosie Gilderthorp 04:02
Yeah, I mean, that’s a really good point. Because one thing I didn’t realise until we started working together was how much of an algorithm Facebook really is in groups. I kind of thought that I would see most things from a group that I was a member of, but that’s really not the case, is it?
Sam Hill 04:19
No, not at all. And actually, it’s funny because I’ve just done a video recently showing how you can make sure that people are seeing more comments in your group because I was part of a group that I didn’t even realise because it wasn’t shown on my feed. So the best way to do that in a Facebook group is you can change your notifications so that you see every single post that comes through. So it’s best to like ask openly, ask your members to do that. But also the communication; every time you put a post out that somebody comments on the next post will be seen more. So it’s really important to get people talking.
Rosie Gilderthorp 05:01
So this is why engagement and active members kind of work together as the most important stats, because presumably, if you’re getting lots of engagement on a post, more people are going to see the posts and become active members.
Sam Hill 05:16
Yeah, that’s right. Yeah, more. So if you’ve got a really, really popular post, and then you’ve got a post that you think might not be as popular, put it after the most popular one, because the algorithm will show it to more people, because the last post was active, if that makes sense.
Rosie Gilderthorp 05:33
That’s a really good tip, because people often ask me in the Do More Than Therapy community, you know, I’ve got this blog post or a podcast episode or a video even, that is on a topic which I don’t think is going to get very good engagement, but is really important. And that can be a way of getting that seen can’t it. I remember when I was writing about trauma, that was something which we had to do quite a lot. Because, you know, I’d have like a light conversation post, get as many comments as I could on that one. And then do the blog post post afterwards, because nobody’s going to admit to needing the blog post I was about to put up.
Sam Hill 06:12
Yeah. And I think in in the communities that your listeners will be in, a lot of topics that you talk about, won’t necessarily lend itself to open conversation. So that’s why you need the lighter sort of conversation starters in the group first, to allow that to kind of get shown to everybody. And then that might lead to a private message or an email or an going on like that.
Rosie Gilderthorp 06:42
Yeah, that was definitely how it used to work when I ran groups for parents with different kind of clinical struggles. It was very much like nobody was going to kind of openly talk about their problems in the group, which I must admit, I was a little bit disappointed by. One of the reasons I set up, a couple of the groups that I set up was to try and provide support, and did a lot of thinking about how to manage risk and all of that stuff. It was a lot of work. But actually, that wasn’t what people were on Facebook for. That wasn’t how they wanted to access me, but I would get work in my inbox, I would get people kind of messaging me from that, and the group stayed kind of lighter. And and we can talk more about that later if it’s helpful, kind of, you know, one of the groups I did work well, because it’s very task focused, and I think that can be helpful. But we might come on to that a little bit later, I think. So you know, if engagement is really important, I think the first thing people are going to want to know then is well, how the hell do I get people to talk in a group?
Sam Hill 07:44
So the best way is not to be super, like businessy. And I know that sounds completely back to front. But you need to remember that everyone in your group are people, whether it’s members to do with your business like Rosie’s going for psychologists, or you’ve got clients in there. So have conversation starters, which is what I call them. So like, really silly things like what’s your favourite colour? It’s easy conversation that anybody can answer and they don’t feel pressured. And that will start the conversation and make people feel more confident, I think, to get going with the conversations.
Rosie Gilderthorp 08:26
It’s about asking them something that’s easy to answer and kind of non threatening.
Sam Hill 08:30
Yes, definitely. Yeah. It just makes it more comfortable.
Rosie Gilderthorp 08:35
Yeah, and different things seem to be more comfortable for different audiences as well so that you’ve probably got to test, like do you remember in the Do More Than Therapy community, we tried to do a like gifs conversation starter, and because it worked really well in another group that we’re both in, and I love a good gif, but it turns out that people in the Do More Than Terapy community did not like a good gif.
Sam Hill 08:56
I think that’s where you need to have a little bit of patience, it’s test and trial. People come to me wanting me to give them like the straightforward you must do this, this and this on Monday, Wednesday and Friday, and it will work, but unfortunately, it’s not the case. Like a lot of businessy groups you do need accountability and wins. But you know, I manage a baby group that you don’t want accountability in a baby group, that’s not gonna work, so you do need to consider your, your audience I think.
Rosie Gilderthorp 09:28
Yeah, I mean, with everything in marketing, I feel like I’m always kind of banging on about the fact that good marketing is actually good listening. And it’s the same when you start your group, you’ve got to get to know those people and what they want from you and what they want from each other, and then you’re just kind of facilitating that.
Sam Hill 09:46
Yeah, definitely.
Rosie Gilderthorp 09:49
So, what are some of the common mistakes you see when people set up a group for the first time?
Sam Hill 09:57
One of the big mistakes is that the host, so for example Rosie in hers, feel like they need to answer every single question immediately. And I think all this does is scare your clients, because no one’s gonna want to talk to each other. You need to remember it’s a community and they’re talking to each other. And if you’re going to jump in and answer every question immediately, that’s never going to work. So try and let them answer first, and then you jump in and answer the question. I think that’s probably the one of the biggest mistakes. Another one is not setting up rules. I don’t know…
Rosie Gilderthorp 10:38
Ah, I was gonna talk to you about rules. Rules is something that Sam, like, enforces for me. Because I think for any community owner, you want to help everybody, you want to let everybody in. Erm I, I really struggled with this, but Sam has proven to me how worthwhile rules are. So tell us a bit about why we need rules Sam.
Sam Hill 11:02
I’m, I’m very strict when it comes to rules. I think you will, you need rules, because it’s your group, you need to remember that, that’s it is your group and your rules goes. Because especially in business, like people will come and take advantage, unfortunately. So having a good set of rules set up at the very beginning, makes it a lot easier if then later on someone breaks a rule or you get arguments in the group, or I don’t know, someone wants to come into the group that the group’s not there for, you can just point them to the rules and say, look, this is the rules of my group, no. It’s easy as that, really, but yeah, lots of people shy away from them. And I don’t know why.
Rosie Gilderthorp 11:45
Well, I know why, I think it’s because you, you feel like you’re denying something helpful to somebody. And that never feels comfortable, especially a lot of the people that we’ve had to say no to we’ve had to say no, because they aren’t a mental health professional.
Sam Hill 12:03
Yeah.
Rosie Gilderthorp 12:04
And, and it’s very important to the Do More Than Therapy community, that it’s a safe space, because everybody can be confident that everyone else in the group has a shared understanding of the work that we do. And you know, it doesn’t matter whether you’re a psychologist, or whether you’re a therapist from a completely different school of thought. To me, you know, essentially, everybody in that group is somebody who has, you know, committed their career to helping people with their mental health. And, and that brings with it a certain mindset. And that’s the community that we wanted to create. But I find it really difficult to say no to people, just because that’s not…
Sam Hill 12:46
I think that comes in with the questions as well. Like, when you have a group, you get a choice of three questions that you put in. And I always say to my clients, like, go with the question, don’t just let them in if they haven’t answered them, you need to be strict about this, because that’s about engagement as well. Like if somebody can’t, like almost can’t be bothered to answer three questions before they come in your group, are they going to talk in your group? Are they going to engage? Probably not. So that’s kind of why I’m super strict with that, and taught Rosie to be.
Rosie Gilderthorp 13:22
Yes, because I think, yeah, you’re right. Somebody who’s not going to answer a question probably isn’t going to talk very much in the group. And is that bad then, is it bad to have people there who don’t do anything?
Sam Hill 13:35
I wouldn’t say it’s bad. Like, you’ll always get kind of a percentage of people that just sit there. And that’s fine, because you never know, like, I lurk in some groups, and then I’ll buy something like six months later. So you’ll always get those people. But you’re the majority of people you get in there, you want to be engaging, because otherwise it’s not a community.
Rosie Gilderthorp 14:01
So I’ve realised I’ve kind of sidetracked you a little bit into into talking about the questions. So I’ll asked one more thing on that, and then I’ll go back to rules. But with the questions, one thing that you showed me that has been really helpful is using the questions to get people onto our email list.
Sam Hill 14:19
Yes
Rosie Gilderthorp 14:20
Does that work for a lot of people?
Sam Hill 14:23
Yeah, I’ve seen it work for probably 80% of my clients. I had one client that was really upset that she didn’t get an email from everybody, that’s never gonna happen. Some people might be in there, they just want the community side of it and not the rest, and that’s absolutely fine. But yeah, you you’ve got to use that I think as a business. As long as you’re GDPR compliant, which I know Rosie’s got information about, and you tell them what you’re going to do with the email address, then absolutely, you should ask for that. And it’s a really good way of growing your audience away from the group as well, which you need.
Rosie Gilderthorp 15:04
Yeah, and that’s something that I wanted to talk about really, because although a Facebook group is a great thing, and at the moment, they are in vogue with Facebook, I think you’d agree.
Sam Hill 15:17
Totally,
Rosie Gilderthorp 15:18
It’s, it’s the best parts of Facebook to get traction with. And it’s what Facebook is prioritising right now. Facebook’s really fickle, and it could go tomorrow, and accounts get shut down on Facebook, you know, all kinds of things that you can’t control happen on social media platforms, any of them, not just Facebook. So for me, it’s really important to have a backup way of communicating with people. And, and also you can offer, I would argue, you can offer more value if you can get into people’s inboxes. Because you can send downloads and checklists and, and whatever it is that you’re using to support people, you can reach them in a different way, if you get their email address. So I think it’s a win-win for the people that want it, so to at least offer them that when they join the group, I think seems like a really good idea.
Sam Hill 16:11
Yeah, I agree. And it’s scary, actually, like I’ve heard recently of people being asked to prove their identity and having their whole Facebook group and profile shut down. And that’s really scary if you’ve grown a massive group, and your whole business relies on that. So yeah, you definitely should use some questions to get people on your mailing list. And you can also then do onboarding things and send them nice emails about stuff that’s going on in the group. It’s, it’s another way to touch base with your clients.
Rosie Gilderthorp 16:45
Yeah, absolutely. I can’t remember who I was talking to. I think one of the Do More Than Therapy members was asking me about that. And I think it’s a really great idea to email people to say I’m going live, for example, if you’re going to put the effort in to do a live video in your group, you want as many people as possible to be watching that. And sending people an email reminder about it is a really powerful way of doing that. I must admit, I think I’ve taken my eye off the ball with that. I did used to do it. And I think I’ve stopped, I don’t think I’ve done that for a little while. But I think that’s actually a really great way of again, helping people have the best experience possible of your group and get the most out of it.
Sam Hill 17:22
And that’s what you’re trying to do. You’re giving them an experience for them to come back. And if they feel involved, then they’ll engage more.
Rosie Gilderthorp 17:31
So coming back to rules, actually, because I kind of diverted you off into questions, because in my head, I was just thinking about that today. But which rules do you notice are the most important to stick to?
Sam Hill 17:46
Number one rule that you’ve got to have is self promotion and spamming, like no matter what your group is about, you will get this, like I’ve not, I’ve not seen any group that hasn’t got it, it would amaze me, if someone told me they never got any spam. So having that is super important. You want to give your community the chance to like promote themselves or tell people about themselves. However, if you don’t have that rule in place, your whole feed can become just full of promotion, which then it is not a community anymore. So yeah.
Rosie Gilderthorp 18:23
And it can get really sticky can’t it, because in clinical groups that I’ve run, I’ve had people join, and then promote their service, which is really similar to mine, in the group. And while you know, I’m pleased that there are other people offering similar services to me, and I don’t, you know, if you’ve listened to this for a while, you know that I don’t really believe in competition. And I kind of think if we work together, we raise the whole industry up. And there’s more than enough work and all of that. At the same time, the hours that you will put into this group mean that, you know, you need to be that you need to be benefiting from it, your business has to benefit from it, it’s going to be harder for you to benefit from it if somebody is promoting an identical service to yours in that group. Also people have a limit don’t they for how many promotional posts they’re going to look at. And if they see too many, they’ll start tuning them all out. So you don’t really want them to be tuning out when you finally put yours.
Sam Hill 19:23
Yeah, yeah, when you put your own in. And that’s, that’s why the rules are super helpful. Because when you remove a post in a group, it gives you the option to refer back to the rules. So you can click on the rule that it’s broken, and it tells that person so it’s automatically doing that for you if you’ve set them up in the first place.
Rosie Gilderthorp 19:43
Yes, it feels a lot politer because all you’re doing is saying yeah, sorry, this is the policy, especially if you do have a dedicated promotion thread anyway because I mean, it’s, it’s complicated if you’re doing one for businesses as well. So in the Do More Than Therapy community we have the same policy. And for that I actually love people sharing what they do in that group, it’s very unlikely that people are in direct competition with me or with each other. So it’s not really for that reason that we don’t allow promotion. It’s, it’s simply because the, the feed that people see would be unreadable, because people are doing so many incredible things. So instead, we distil it all on to the Monday post, it’s called shameless plug or something at the moment. And that is then a really nice resource bank for people, if you’re looking for something and then it’s really nice to be able to click down on that thread and see what everybody’s up to. And actually, that thread made me cry this week. I don’t know if you saw it, Sam, but my God, people are doing some incredible stuff in the group.
Sam Hill 20:51
That’s my, my favourite post in any group is like the, the plug one or the wins post, where I get to hear what every everyone’s achieved. It just makes it nice for other people to find as well as you’re not scrolling through for hours trying to find something. It’s all on the same, same thread.
Rosie Gilderthorp 21:14
And as a group owner, you’ve got to be thinking about that haven’t you, you’ve got to be thinking about the experience of the people who are using your group and trying to see it through their eyes.
Sam Hill 21:24
Yeah, I think, I think as a group owner, people, you forget what your feed’s gonna look like.
Rosie Gilderthorp 21:31
It looks different to you doesn’t it, I think?
Sam Hill 21:33
Yeah, and I think because you’re the only one that sees all your content, you, you see your stuff first, and then it kind of gets lost, I think. And if it although we want everybody to share everything all the time, if you’ve got it organised, it’s like a filing system. If you’ve got it organised properly, then it’s much easier to use that as well going forward with content. That kind of helps everything really.
Rosie Gilderthorp 22:03
Yeah, I mean, thinking about that, the like organisation of the group, how should we be using stuff like units? Because Sam does all of that for me. You can probably tell. We use units in the group, but I’ve never actually figured them out. How should we be using that?
Sam Hill 22:19
Yeah, so units, actually, today, I have found out has been renamed guides. Yeah, for some, for some groups. So if you’re listening to this, and you don’t have units, it’s now called guides. You use it as a filing system essentially. So in a group, if you’ve got like podcasts that you want everyone to be able to find really easily, you can have a unit for podcasts, and like Rosie goes live in her group. So it’s a really good way to go back and file it as a live so that when you get new members coming in, they’re not missing out on that content. Because if you just left it live in your feed, my goodness, you’d never be able to find it again. So that’s kind of how you use units to the best of their ability. And another way I’ve seen it used in like smaller memberships, is to have each person have a unit of their own. And yeah, and I don’t think it would work for a big community because it would become overloaded. But if you were using it as kind of a mastermind type thing, you could put each person would have their own separate unit, and they could put all of that stuff in there so people could find it. And so yeah, that works really well. But for you, we use it as kind of a filing system. So people can just go in, find what they’re looking for come back out again, into the main feed.
Rosie Gilderthorp 23:46
And that kind of brings me to the next thing I wanted to talk to you about, really, because I think people who have listened to the other podcasts that I’ve recorded this month on Facebook, will know that the way that I see having a group is just a different method of delivering something of value to people. And for me, it makes sense that you would obviously need units in your group, because you’re going to be providing loads of high quality cornerstone content, as I call it, like podcasts or blogs or videos. But I don’t think that necessarily is the way that traditionally we thought about groups on Facebook. So can you talk a bit about that, about, you know, the role that content or podcasts or blogs play in the life of a group?
Sam Hill 24:35
Yeah. So I think if somebody’s got cornerstone content, as you call it, it’s much easier to grow your group. It’s much easier to talk about your group in other places. And also it gives that sort of cornerstone to, to your group, the reason why you’ve got it. I’ve had people come to me previously with no content at all. And said to me, my group’s dead, there’s nothing going on. And I say to them, okay, so have you got a blog that we can repurpose into some conversations in the group, no. And you kind of stop dead when you haven’t got that content. I must say Rosie’s group is like, really easy to make conversation because she’s awesome. And she has this podcast. So, so we can repurpose these podcasts. And we can talk about them in the group. And we can, you know, it gives you a starting point, essentially. But also, you know, you can then use it on on Instagram or Facebook pages, or it just the whole thing becomes a lot easier.
Rosie Gilderthorp 25:46
Yeah, I really don’t know what I would do on social media full stop without cornerstone content.
Sam Hill 25:54
Yeah it’s very hard to do anything, and I am proof of that. Because I spend so much of my time in people’s communities that I don’t, I don’t have cornerstone content of my own. And I’ve been really looking at this recently. Because I keep telling people they need it. And it does, it makes it much easier. You can, I don’t, I don’t think you can be on social media in a good way without having content, unless you’re me, and you’re in communities all the time.
Rosie Gilderthorp 26:26
But I think it’s about having a journey for people to go on, isn’t it? There’s no reason for somebody to come and join your group, if they don’t think they’re gonna get something out of it. And that cornerstone content that you produce, it shows them what you can offer them. And then in the group, they get to discuss it with you in more detail. And if you are like them.
Sam Hill 26:46
Yeah, it builds trust, I think and shows that you know, your stuff as well. Like, you don’t want to, I think people are so busy that they don’t want to come into groups, and just sit there and not, not get anything from it. It gives it a good platform as well, as you say, to discuss stuff. Because like a podcast, you listened to it, and you might have something you want to ask the person. Like, where would you go to do that? In your group. That’s, you know, that, it gives you that opportunity to talk about it there. So yeah.
Rosie Gilderthorp 27:20
And I just think that’s the way that the group adds value. It’s having that forum to take the message of whatever you’ve created further, and share your thoughts and ask questions with like minded people and the person that created it. And I think that is a shift. I think when I joined social media, when I joined Facebook, I was an early adopter. And actually, we were just really excited to talk to people. And we were just going on there and willing to join groups and join in with chats that were literally just chats. But not now. I think today, there are so many avenues that you can take on social media. I personally, I don’t even know how many groups I’m in, but it’s it’s more than I can handle. Like the pages that I need to go through to delete are overwhelming to me. So I don’t even get, I don’t even get out of the groups that I don’t want to be in. And so that’s how overwhelmed we are when we come onto our social media apps. So we’re really only going to choose to be in groups, now I only would join a group, if I’m really excited by what I’m going to get, either from the community or from the person directly who’s running the group.
Sam Hill 28:30
Yeah, and I think that’s where the engagement and communication comes to as well. It’s a full circle, really, because there are so many Facebook groups, like I don’t even know there must be 1000s and 1000s of them. And you need to be the one that stands out. And if you’ve got that cornerstone content that you can then use in your group that makes you stand out instantly. And then if you’ve got the engagement on top of that it keeps people coming in. So it is a big circle really where you what you need to do. But I am a big fan of cornerstone content, I think you need it.
Rosie Gilderthorp 29:05
Definitely. And the other thing I wanted to talk to you about really was why pop up groups can be more successful, because I know that there are some people listening to this who have really struggled to get their groups off the ground. And when we’ve kind of unpicked it a little bit, it’s been because their topic is really big. And I think people don’t think they can solve that on social media. So my advice has been like, let’s pick a really tiny part of that problem, and see if we can get a little bit of shift in somebody’s life over a short period of time. And I would use a pop up group to do that. But I’ve noticed a real trend for them. And I think it’s not just me that likes them, and so why why can a pop up group work for us?
Sam Hill 29:54
No, it’s not just you. I think pop up groups have become super popular in the last kind of year. I’ve seen more and more come, come up. And one way that a lot of you people use it for challenges, to get a kick start on your social media, that’s a really good way. But like a niche subject, like you mentioned, it’s because, some of your businesses are so wide and can be about so many things, having a pop up grave allows you to just concentrate on that one thing. And people are eager to talk in there because they know it’s going to be gone. And I know, I know, that sounds a bit odd, but I’ve been in a few recently where they have been super busy. And they would never be that busy all the time. Because people know that it’s not going to be there, it’s not forever, they get more out of it, they they take part more. So it yeah, it can be really good way to sort of kickstart something I think. The danger, though is to keep your popup group open. Be careful when you decide if you want to do that or not. Because I just I’ve seen it work where pop up groups have been left open and it’s been brilliant, and it’s turned into an amazing community. And then I’ve seen others were, there was loads of like enthusiasm for the challenge or the niche topic they were talking about, and then it just stopped. And so you need to be very careful when you make that decision of keeping it open or closing it. I think.
Rosie Gilderthorp 31:26
It’s a little bit like therapy, isn’t it? So if you have a pop up group, essentially, that’s a group where you contract that we’re going to work together intensively on this topic for a set period of time. And just like with therapy, you can agree to extend that period of time but you have to have really good reasons for doing it. Otherwise, it’s not really going to serve anybody particularly well. And I think…
Sam Hill 31:52
That’s a really good example, I’ll to use that one. I was I was in a pop up group for a mastermind. So it was a 12 week mastermind. So if you’re doing like a 12 week course, a pop up group is really good. And we were in it, and we used it for accountability. And we knew it was closing. So it didn’t come as a surprise either. And it worked really, really well for that 12 weeks. But I don’t think it would have worked for longer because it was just a 12 week course. So.
Rosie Gilderthorp 32:19
Yeah, and often they can be really short, can’t they? I mean, I think a lot of people in Do More Than Therapy, have done some kind of LinkedIn challenges. We had a pop up group for the blogging challenge. Those were all only, you know, a week or two weeks long, I think those groups were open for. The longest one I’ve done as a pop up group actually was the 21 day mindfulness challenge, I don’t think I’d call it a challenge actually, mindfulness journey or something, a bit more congruent. But it was a it was a mindfulness group where we had a set activity every single day for parents who are going through divorce, so it was really quite specific. And it was over the Christmas period. And that was the first time I’d used a pop up group. And I couldn’t believe how well that worked. Because I’d set up groups for that audience before, that hadn’t worked particularly well. But it was the task, it was the fact that it’s okay for me to talk because I’m talking about a specific task that everyone else here is talking about too.
Sam Hill 33:20
Yeah, it’s making sure that it’s specific. And it’s niche. And it’s one thing, I think that’s why, and there’s no set rules, you can have a pop up group for a week, you can have it for a year. You know, as long as you tell those people when they’re coming in they it’s not a forever group that’s going to be there. And actually, it makes the conversations much easier as well, if it’s a niche topic, because then you know what you’re talking about every day. But it works really well for a task. Like if you’re giving them a task every day, and you ask them to post in the group. It’s a really good way to get instant feedback as well, from your clients that way.
Rosie Gilderthorp 34:00
Yeah, definitely. And I just think there’s something about you know, if you’re really not sure about the direction of your practice, if you’re still at the stage where you’re thinking, you know, this might be good specialism for me, but I’m not entirely sure yet that I’ve got the kind of vision and mission and specialism all marrying up together. Then set up a pop up group, put a lot of work in, there is no point kind of doing it half heartedly, but a lot of work in for a set period of time. Get to know those people in that group really well. And you will get to the end of that with a much firmer idea about what they need from you and whether you want to do it. Actually, when I did that group for parents going through divorce, it went extremely well. I got to know people really well, but I got to the end of it and thought actually, that isn’t the specialism I want. That just isn’t, isn’t for me. And that was, it was tough in a lot of ways and I’d put in a huge amount of work, but it wasn’t wasted whatsoever. I needed to get to know that client group to know what they needed and to know that that wasn’t something that I thought I could provide with the life that I have right now. So it’s always valuable. You know, even if you spend ages on a pop up group that then you close and you actually are like, that’s not specialism for me, it is, it’s valuable time.
Sam Hill 35:30
Yeah. And it’s okay to open a group, put the time in and learn what you need to learn and close it. That’s okay. It’s what, what isn’t okay, is just to continue a group for no reason, it not give you anything, and be scared to close it. I think, which I’ve seen, I’ve seen happen.
Rosie Gilderthorp 35:49
Yes, yeah. Well, I was scared to close my first group. I knew it wasn’t bringing me any business. And I knew that it wasn’t really helping anybody either because there was virtually no chat in it other than between people who I knew knew each other socially. So I was like, this is not really doing anything for anybody. But it was still really difficult to make that decision to close it, really difficult. And I still look at it sometimes because Facebook hasn’t got rid of it off my side panel, and I feel like a little pang of sad. But yeah, you do have to make that decision. Because if you’re going to run a group, it’s going to take a huge amount of your time. And there is no way of running a successful group that doesn’t take hours every week. So it’s only worth doing it, in my opinion, if it’s essential to your business vision. And I’ve talked…
Sam Hill 36:41
I agree. People come to me to talk about setting up a group and the first thing I asked them is, what is it for? Because lots of people feel like they need a group, because everyone else has got a group. But when I say to them, what what’s your group for, they don’t actually know. And that’s where you’re going to sort of, I hate to say the word fail, but fail instantly, if you don’t know what your group is about. And having a Facebook group or any group, any community anywhere, it’s, it’s hard work. I’m not gonna lie like it is a lot of work and Rosie’s nodding away because she knows how much work her groups are. But they’re totally worth it, the benefit from it, if it’s done well, is is worth your time, I think.
Rosie Gilderthorp 37:31
Yeah, absolutely. I think there is no better way of getting to know your ideal clients. But it only makes sense to do it. Really, if you’re trying to build online authority. Because, because you’ve got one too many idea in mind, I think,
Sam Hill 37:47
Yeah, no, I agree.
Rosie Gilderthorp 37:49
And there’s a lot of people in private practice, for example, psychologists and therapists, who they really don’t need to build a community online. And I really don’t want you to feel obligated to do it. And vision isn’t demanding it of you. But I think you know, if you get really clear if you if you go back and you listen to the vision and mission and values episode, and you listen to the ways to use Facebook episode, which I hope will have come out last week, bit rubbish at sequencing, but it should have. If you listen to all of that, and you think, yeah, a group is going to take me where I want to go in my business, this is the best way to connect with this client group, and I’m really excited about it, then you’ll find the energy to do it. And you’ll find the motivation to maybe, maybe take a little bit of an income hit, say no to a few clients, so that you’ve got the hours to do it. You need to kind of play that long game. And because Sam’s known me for a few years now, you’ve seen me have to do that.
Sam Hill 38:53
Yeah, it is a long game. Facebook groups, they’re not an instant. It’s not going to be an instant win overnight. Some people get lucky. One or two. But the majority it is the long game. It’s growing it and sticking at it and accepting when a post you tried doesn’t work, you know, and you just move on and try the next one. It’s it’s definitely, yeah, definitely a long game Facebook groups.
Rosie Gilderthorp 39:20
And that’s a really good point as well, that you will put stuff in there that just flops totally, and you have to do that.
Sam Hill 39:26
Yeah, that’s been I mean, even in the groups I manage, like your groups, there’s been posts where I’ve said to you, no, that’s not worked. Let’s not do that again.
Rosie Gilderthorp 39:36
Loads.
Sam Hill 39:37
So you know, but you won’t know that until you try and you need to, and that’s how you learn what your audience wants is to put things in. I mean people are so scared of getting it wrong, but actually that’s probably the most valuable bit is getting it wrong, because then you know what you need to do.
Rosie Gilderthorp 39:56
Absolutely. So actually thinking about how much work it is, one question I was going to ask you is, how do people make the decision to bring somebody in like you to get help in their group? And what kinds of things can they get help with?
Sam Hill 40:12
Okay, so I wish it was a really simple answer, like you should have this many people in your group and you should get a community manager. But it’s not, not the case, I don’t think. I think if you can afford it, get a community manager from the very start. Because being a community manager, you need to understand that person’s business and the more you get to understand that person’s business, and the more you get to know their members, the better job you can do, essentially. So I’ve been very lucky that I’ve been with Rosie from the word go. So we’ve been able to grow it very closely together. But I know that a lot of people aren’t in that situation where they can afford it straight away. So I would say, you know, test some things yourself in there first, open it up, do you know, do the threads take the tips that we’ve given you, and then when you’re sort of reaching the point where you can’t manage it yourself anymore, where you’re in there too much, and there’s too many things to moderate, that’s when you then want to come and speak to a community manager. Other ways that you can get help is kind of power hours. So I do a Power Hour where I will set up a group because I think it’s really important to set a group up properly from the word go, like the rules we spoke about, and the questions and, and all the units. And if all of that’s set up correctly, it makes it a lot easier to run yourself. So yeah, there’s not a straightforward answer. But yeah, that’s what I would probably say.
Rosie Gilderthorp 41:47
Yeah, no, I think that makes a lot of sense. And I would definitely echo that, that if you can get help at the beginning in some way, whether that’s a Power Hour, or just being able to pay a community manager for a very small amount of time, I think is really helpful. Because you can always scale it up, but then that person has an understanding of what you’re trying to achieve with your group.
Sam Hill 42:08
Yeah, I was gonna say that, like, you don’t have to, I know, it might seem scary to have a community manager there all the time and, and people that are listening to this will hopefully have seen me in Rosie’s group. And that might seem like I’m there a lot. But then I’ve been with Rosie from the very beginning, I have some clients where I only pop in like once a week just to check on stuff. And that’s quite a low cost, really. But the idea is to get it running properly and then to scale that, grow it, and then I can come on board more. But it does help from both parties if it’s from the beginning, I think
Rosie Gilderthorp 42:49
And if you know that you are going to be a bit of a soft touch. You might struggle to make people stick to rules or that you might let people in, it, I can’t tell you how helpful it’s been having Sam there just to say, no, that’s not allowed, say no. Because it really does make a difference. And I hope if you’re listening to this and you are a member of the Do More Than Therapy community group particularly, I hope that you can kind of see the benefit of that in the group. Because I do think it feels like a really safe and friendly place to share stuff. And I think that is a lot down to Sam’s hard work kind of making sure that things don’t get diverted and, and you know, Sam’s always friendly, like if we do, if either of us does remove a post or anything, we always have a conversation with the person. I don’t think it’s ever gone badly. Because we’ll find another way for that person to promote that thing. And because we’re not anti promotion, we’re always building each other up
Sam Hill 43:51
Yeah, it’s about keeping it a safe place for people to feel comfortable, I think. And I think having, the bonus of having a community manager so for Rosie the bonus of having me there is she can step away. Because if you know the clients really well, you want them to be able to do everything all the time, when actually that’s not the best thing to do. And having a second person be able to say, d’you know what, actually, that post doesn’t sit right there. It’s it’s just another eyes on your business I think that can help. Because when you’re running it yourself, and you’re in it all the time, you can’t always see that.
Rosie Gilderthorp 44:29
And it can feel really lonely as well if you’re running it all on your, all on your own. And especially I think a lot of people listening to this will be thinking about setting up groups and feeling quite anxious about things like risk management, and having somebody that you trust who is a moderator with you couldn’t be more valuable for that. Obviously it’s not a concern that we have with the Do More Than Therapy community, but it very much was with the the group that I had for parents going through divorce. Just knowing that there is somebody else who actually isn’t clinical, that I can bounce off, you know, my thinking and say kind of, would you find it acceptable if I were to PM you and suggest this helpline or that, you know, that is really, really valuable. And it makes you feel so much more confident that what you’re doing is the right thing. So if you are thinking about setting up a group that you’re anxious about from a risk management perspective, I think, you know, getting a community manager or a couple of peers on board to help you moderate. I would, I wouldn’t do it without that.
Sam Hill 45:38
Yeah, I agree. And one of the things I might add, if that’s all right, Rosie is, with your clients, I think the people that are gonna be watching this, you might, watching it listening, it’s because I’m talking to you. One of the things you might want to think about is having a disclosure on like your rules. Especially if you’re giving advice, like if it’s a medical, I don’t know what sort of group you might have, but with the psychology groups, it’s just to make it clear that it’s not medically, like advice there, and you need to go elsewhere and get that. I think, because I’ve seen that happen in a few groups. And actually, I have the baby group that I manage, we get a lot of people asking for medical advice in that. And we have to monitor it very closely. And I can imagine that it’s the same for, for you guys. So that’s something to consider when you’re setting it up.
Rosie Gilderthorp 46:39
100%. And would you have that in the rules so that you can then refer people back to that really easily?
Sam Hill 46:45
Yeah, so I’d have it in the rules. But I’d also have it in something called a fairplay agreement. Rosie’s got one for her membership. And in that it just sets out what to expect from the group. Not all groups need it, it just depends what, if it’s a paid group I think it’s, it’s most needed. And we could talk about paid groups forever. But yeah, just I think it just sets out the expectations. Because if you’re going into a, like a therapy group, you know that I can imagine the things that people could ask could to get away from the community that you’re trying to create. So yeah, rules or or a fairplay agreement.
Rosie Gilderthorp 47:26
Yeah, or both. And I think, trying to create that in a digestible format for whoever it is that you’re working with, so a video version of that, plus, the PDF document might be a really useful way of doing that for people that might not be so comfortable with, with reading.
Sam Hill 47:46
Oh, gosh, yeah, I always encourage my clients, and they hate me for it, but to do videos, any anytime you can to explain anything, have a video in there, because it makes it much easier for everyone to access as well as the written version.
Rosie Gilderthorp 48:03
That kind of brings me actually to the final point that I wanted to talk to you about today. I’ve had a few questions in my inbox recently, about, you know, how, how people can outsource their social media in general. And one of those, you know, one of the things that somebody was asking me about was, you know, can I get somebody else to post in my group as me? And is that something that community managers do? And I think we both, we both have an opinion on this. And, you know, that is that actually, it needs to be you. Like, you need to be communicating with your group as you in your authentic voice. And whether that’s on video, or whether it’s in your written posts. But, you know, why is that so important? From a community perspective?
Sam Hill 48:53
Yeah, I’m a bit of a stickler for this. So I, when when I start with a client, and they say to me, oh, can you post as me all the time? I essentially say no, because I’m not you. Aside from the fact I’m not a psychologist, so I it would be immoral of me to give advice, you can’t build a community on the back of it being someone else. Because the tone is going to be different of how you say things. So yeah, I know, you can’t, you must do it yourself. And, and that’s the same all the content, you know, I post content for people.
Rosie Gilderthorp 49:32
Well, people know that because we did have that a couple of weeks ago.
Sam Hill 49:36
Yeah people know this, because there was lots of content that made no sense whatsoever coming from me in Rosie’s group. But yeah, my my rule tends to be if it’s a conversation starter or a social media post, it’s absolutely fine to get your community manager to schedule it for you, but they must have wrote, it written it. So Rosie writes all her own content, and then she’ll say to me, can you schedule this in X, Y, and Z? And so I do that. But I would never, and if we do do it by accident, we always tell people, I’d never post as me pretending to be Rosie, because that makes no sense. But however, I do encourage, if you have got a community manager, particularly, to introduce them in the group, and let your group know that they’re there, I don’t think it’s a bad thing. In fact, I think it’s a good thing. It makes them know that there’s someone else looking after them. And then anything I reply to I can reply to is myself. So I don’t need to worry about getting something wrong or answering it wrong. Because they know it’s not Rosie, they know it’s me. So yeah, I am a very, very stickler for that. And I disapprove of people wanting other people to pretend to be them, essentially, I think it’s yeah, it’s impossible really.
Rosie Gilderthorp 51:04
Yeah. And I totally get why it appeals because everybody listening to this effectively, it feels like you’re running two businesses, because a private practice is a full time job, even if you’re only doing it three days a week, just running a private practice that it is full time. And then if you’re trying to develop something online, alongside it, it can, it is a lot of work, and it can just feel really overwhelming and challenging. And I’ve totally had that craving like, can I not just give this to someone else, please, because I’m so so busy. And but actually, that meant it was the wrong time. That meant when I looked at kind of the vision and my values and my mission, it was the wrong time to be pursuing an online audience. So…
Sam Hill 51:50
You’ve got, I think, you’ve got to remember that people buy from people, I know, and that’s a saying that everyone uses, but you know, people are coming to you because they resonate for what you’ve said and who you are. So if then all of a sudden, you’re giving somebody else your content to write for you, that’s not going to sound the same. Even, even if I was a psychologist and I was writing Rosie’s content, it would be completely different. Because my tone is different to yours. So yeah, I don’t think it’s possible. But it’s a hard one to swallow. If, if you don’t have time to do it yourself, I think.
Rosie Gilderthorp 52:30
Yeah. But I guess you know, if you don’t have time, it might well be because you’ve got lots of clients. And if you’ve got lots of clients, you might have, you know, a little bit of wiggle room financially. So you might be able to say no to a couple of clients to make the time to do it. If your values and your vision tell you that you have to. And I know I just keep coming back to that, but, but ultimately, I think often we lack clarity on what we really want to get out of it. And I think your message all the way through to Sam has been like know what you want, and that makes it worth it.
Sam Hill 53:05
Yeah, totally. And, you know, if a Facebook group is a must for you, and you must have it and you’re struggling with time, then look at ways that you can save time, you know, get systems, I know Rosie’s talks about systems and processes. Like we have a really good system and process that we have between us that I’m sure saves Rosie time, even though she’s writing all the content. And that’s another reason to kind of make sure that you trust the person you’re going to have running your group. Because then you feel more comfortable, I think, leaving them, but yeah, just make sure it’s what you need, what you want, what you need. And don’t just feel like you have to have one because everybody’s got one.
Rosie Gilderthorp 53:48
Absolutely. And I think that’s a really good point to finish on. So thank you so much, Sam for sharing so much value with us today. Now I know you’ve been working on your website. So if people want to find you, where can they go to find out more about you?
Sam Hill 54:02
Yeah, so my website is a work in progress, but you can find it samanthajhill.co.uk but the best place at the moment is probably Instagram. So that’s the same handle I’m sure Rosie’ll put it in. I will, I’ll link to it in the show notes. And I have got a Facebook group that you can come and join called The Community Lounge which you’re welcome to come and ask any questions and everything in there. So yeah, that’s me really thank you for for having me on.
Rosie Gilderthorp 54:30
Brilliant. Thank you for being here. Before you go, I just wanted to check something out with you. Because I don’t know if this is just me. But do you sometimes wake up at two o’clock in the morning, worried that you’ve made a terrible error that’s going to bring professional ruin upon you and disgrace your family? I’m laughing now. But when I first set up in private practice, I was completely terrified that I’d missed something really big when I was setting up my insurance or data protection practices. Even now three years in, I sometimes catch myself wondering if I’ve really covered all the bases properly. And it’s hard. No, actually, it’s impossible to think creatively and have the impact you should be having in your practice, if you aren’t confident that you have a secure business underneath you. But it can be really overwhelming to figure out exactly what you need to prioritise before those clients start coming in. So I’ve created a free checklist plus resources list to take the thinking out of it. Tick off every box and you can see your clients confident in the knowledge that you have everything in place for your security and theirs. You can download it now from psychologist.drrosie.co.uk/client-checklist and the link is in the show notes. Thank you for listening to this week’s episode of the Business of Psychology podcast. If you share my passion for doing more than therapy, then make sure you come over and join my free Do More Than Therapy Facebook community, where you can work on getting your big ideas off the ground with like minded psychologists and therapists. I’d also love it if you could leave the show a five star review wherever you listen to your podcasts. It will help more of the people who need it to find it. See you next week for more tips and inspirational stories to help you do more than therapy.