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Transcript of Episode:
Today I’m talking to Dr. Lucy Russell. Lucy is the clinical lead for a successful child psychology group practice in Buckinghamshire called Everlief. If you follow her online, her passion for reaching parents of school-aged children is clear, and she’s done an amazing job of reaching more families with the book she co-wrote with her colleagues, Brighter Futures. Brighter Futures is a book that I’m really happy to have my hands on before my kids hit school age, and Lucy is here to tell us how she made it all happen. So Lucy, hi and welcome to the podcast.
Hi.
Inspiration: What motivated Lucy to Write Her Book
Can you start by telling us a little bit about what inspired you to write the book and who it’s intended to help?
Well, okay, what inspired me, like you, wanting to do something more. I do face-to-face therapy, and I enjoy it, but I wanted to do something more that reached a wider audience of parents and also something a bit more preventative because parents come to me when they’ve hit crisis point pretty much. So I was looking to do something that helped them before they got to that stage. And also the families that come to our clinic have suggested writing a book over the years, and so finally a few of us got round to it and wrote that book.
Yeah. I mean, I really resonate with that experience because I think so many families that I see are just saying, “Why couldn’t we have had this help sooner? Why wasn’t there something available that was more affordable at an earlier point?” And a lot of people are also saying, “I’ve got a friend who really needs this, but they can’t afford to come and see you.” And that’s definitely what drives me to try and do something at a more affordable price point as well. What I love about the book is that it imparts a lot of the knowledge that we spend the first few sessions of therapy talking about anyway. So I think it would give people a real standing start coming to your clinic.
Yeah, that’s what we were hoping. We were hoping that it would provide kind of the voice of a psychologist so that parents could really understand the process that they and their children would go through if they came to Everlief. But I mean, hopefully, most of them won’t need to come to Everlief. It’s just that it will provide the step-by-step process that they will get if they were to see a psychologist.
What I love about it is there’s a lot of really human content. There’s a lot about how the brain works and how development works and how normal a lot of quite distressing experiences actually are. And what came through from the way that it’s written is that it’s based on personal, not just professional experiences.
Absolutely, yes. I mean, there were six of us that wrote the book, and all of us are parents, and all of us have different aged children, some at university and some preschool age. Mine are 10 and 14 at the moment. But we all have experiences, and we’ve all had difficulties obviously, because that’s human.
And I was really interested actually, before we did this interview, you told me that you’d had some difficulties with sleep when your kids were young. And I thought, “Oh my gosh, the number of parents I see because of sleep.” It seems like something that’s a real passion for you. It’s also a real passion for me. So could you talk a bit about that?
Yes. Whenever I encounter families that have sleep difficulties, it’s the one area that I really feel I can empathize with and really feel I can kind of give experienced advice on. I have two children, but the youngest, in particular, had severe sleep difficulties when she was a baby and really didn’t sleep through the night till at least two. But up to about age six or seven, we had massive difficulties with her. She’s 14 now, and she sleeps pretty well, although she still struggles to get to sleep.
But it really did. It had a massive impact on everything. It had an impact on my health. My immune system just wasn’t functioning properly at all. We did go out, but we couldn’t go out as much as some of the other families. For example, in my NCT group, I was so jealous of some of the families whose children slept. There was one whose child slept for 12 hours pretty much from birth, and I just… Oh, I was so envious. So I really did a lot of research, and there was a particular book called The Baby Whisperer that really, really helped me at the time, and things did get better. And hopefully, I can help parents to see that things do get better.
I think that empathy coming from that standpoint of I know how desperate you are, I know that you feel like you’ll try absolutely anything, and just that shines through the way the book’s written, and I’m sure it shines through all of your clinical work as well. I think that is so powerful for people because definitely my experience was that my little boy… I have two kids. I’ve got a daughter who’s three and a little boy who’s 20 months.
Oh, wow!
So we’re sort of still in that phase, to be honest. My daughter was a great sleeper, but my son was quite poorly as a newborn. And my belief is that that’s why he’s always struggled with sleep. It’s because he just needs that physical contact with you to feel secure, and if I had as many lumbar punctures as him, I probably would too. And I think actually, I found that there weren’t a lot of other people that viewed sleep in that way. When I was really going through it in the thick of it, there was a hell of a lot of people telling me to sleep train, giving me behavioral kind of intervention ideas.
Oh, really?
Which didn’t fit with the kind of attachment-focused view that I had of the difficulties. So it’s just really nice for me when I find you talking about it in a way that really fits with my way of thinking.
Oh, that’s great. Yeah.
And the fact that you’ve got that on paper in such an accessible way for parents to understand.
The book looks at difficulties from lots of different perspectives, including behavioral, but we also have a big attachment focus. And the book is based on what we call seven basic beliefs, and one of them is that the importance of nurture just can’t be underestimated, and you can’t really give too much nurture. That’s obviously massively important in sleep, especially with really tiny ones.
And actually, the seven basic beliefs are something I really wanted to ask you about because I love all of them. As a psychologist and as a mum, they just fit so well with everything that I believe and the way that I see the world. But I thought actually there were a couple in there which I know from my work with families can be a bit controversial. For example, concepts like sometimes the environment needs to change, not the child. And some problems are actually a good thing, rather than always being negative.
Yeah.
I thought those are two which I know I’ve kind of had a bit of pushback about in my career, and I wondered what the response has been like to those.
Wow, that’s a really good question. I mean, I don’t think I’ve had a negative response to those areas. I think, for me, the idea that the environment sometimes needs to change instead of the child is possibly one of the most important of those seven beliefs along with the nurture one, because we have to be very careful not to always site the problem as being within the child or even within the family. And I think that some schools, in particular, some of the culture around some schools, not blaming anybody in particular, but it’s just the culture that’s developed, is very tough for some children, for a lot of children. So I think we need to acknowledge that and try and help change that culture or make helpful changes in schools and in families as well where those are going to be helpful.
Have you had any feedback from people that have used the book?
Yeah. We’ve had lots of positive feedback from lots of families and some families that come to the clinic. And we’ve had reviews on Amazon that have been really positive. So overall, I think it’s been a very positive experience. We’ve had lots of people asking for us to do a secondary version, which we’d love to do one day, but it was a lot of work, so I’m not sure when that might happen.
Yeah, I bet it was. How does it feel when you get that kind of feedback?
It feels really, really good. It makes it feel worth it, because there were times when it was a slog writing those chapters and trying to make sure that there was consistency between the different psychologists that were writing and making sure that it was nice to read and accessible to everybody that would be reading it. So it was hard.
getting started: Writing a book as a psychologist
I bet. And actually, starting out a project like that, it must’ve been really intimidating. What were the first steps you took to get started once you’d had the idea for the book?
I must admit, the idea was floating around for a good while before we took any action, maybe a couple of years. I guess the first step was to acknowledge that I didn’t feel able to do the whole thing by myself, that I wanted to collaborate on this. So I asked some members of my team if they would be interested, and luckily five members of the team were. The other important thing was that we had Mike, who’s my husband, but also manages the clinic, kind of project-managing the book. So he was doing all the negotiating and liaising with publishers and so on, and that was massively helpful. So that was a big step for him to agree to take that on and for him to start making small kind of action steps. The first step for us as psychologists was to get together, decide on a topic, which we did over a couple of evenings of nice drinks and cakes and things.
Oh, that sounds amazing.
It was.
Yeah, I love the sound of having somebody who managed the kind of procedure of it and all the steps that needed to be taken, because I assume there’s loads, like your publisher. And I don’t even know how you get going with that stuff. So having that separate from the creative process, that sounds so appealing.
Yeah, that was really helpful. Obviously, it can be done by one person, but if you do have a chance to have somebody who is very organized, they don’t necessarily need to know about publishing, but who is willing to project-manage, it was massively helpful, I must admit.
Okay. So, I mean, I assume that Mike was telling you about what the process was for getting the publisher on board because I noticed that you used Free Association Books…
That’s right.
… who look like the coolest publisher ever. I was reading up on their website, and they said that they were set up in the 1980s by a group of psychoanalysts, and I was like, “That’s cool. That’s the coolest thing.”
Yeah, yeah. I think we came along at the right time for them because they were quite sort of niche at one point. And when they saw our draft chapter that we sent them and overview of the book, they were looking to go a bit more mainstream at that point, and so our book, what we were presenting fitted really nicely with the direction that they were hoping to go in. So it was perfect timing really.
Oh cool. Okay. So you got together an overview for what you wanted to be in the book.
That’s right. I mean, we just… I think Mike mainly, but I contributed as well. We had a look online at what were the first steps if you’re looking to find a publisher, and that was one of the main things. You have to write a draft chapter, and then give an idea of what the contents of the book will look like as well.
Great. And then you found the contact details presumably online.
I can’t remember, but probably. There is something called the Writers’ Yearbook, which we got hold of, which has a list of all the publishers, and it’s divided by topic as well. I think we may have used that along the way.
Yes, I’ve seen that actually. You can get that in Waterstones or Amazon. So I will put a link to that in the show notes for anybody…
Excellent.
… who might be looking for that kind of information, because in doing my stuff for the community, I’ve been looking for a publisher to come and talk to us about how you get something published.
Brilliant.
So I got myself a copy, which I haven’t actually read yet, like many books, so that I can kind of work out who might be a good person. But it sounds like maybe getting somebody from Free Association Books would be pretty interesting.
Yeah, absolutely. They may be interested.
Because I looked at their repertoire, and they publish a lot of really cool books about therapy and hypnotherapy and stuff that’s kind of aligned with what we do, so that sounds great.
Yeah. Yeah, fantastic.
That was the first step then. They accepted your proposal and were excited to get going. Where did it go from there?
Well, Mike kept a dialogue with them. He met with them, and we signed a contract. And then we had to just get going really and create a first draft. We all read each other’s chapters and gave feedback, and we had regular meetings to ensure that there was consistency. We wanted the individual writer’s kind of personality and style of writing to come through, but we also needed some consistency so that the reader would have some idea of what to expect from each chapter.
I read everybody’s chapters as well and gave feedback. I kind of took the lead on the whole… the actual writing. And eventually, we ended up with something that we were happy with. I think we had a deadline that the publishers had given us, which helped. I’m not very good with not having deadlines. We also had a young artist, who’s a staff member at Everlief’s daughter, do the illustrations, which was brilliant for her and brilliant for us. That had to be done before the final draft could be submitted.
Wow. That’s amazing because they are really good.
Oh, thanks. Yeah. No, they really fit with the style that we wanted, the kind of informal… It’s kind of a cartoon type style really.
I love how collaborative the whole process sounds, but it also sounds like it was important to have you taking a lead. What was it like to take that role?
Stressful. Yeah, I think with a team process, it definitely needed somebody to take the lead. And it helped that I’m married to Mike and could be regularly liaising with him about the project-management side of things. So yeah, that was really important.
When you were doing… When you were really in the thick of it, when you were doing the writing and trying to get it all together, how did you make time in your day? Because I’m thinking, “You’re a mum; you’ve got a really busy practice already.” How did this fit in?
Well, I’m lucky that I’m only part-time. I work three days. So I managed to do some of it while the children were at school. But I’m probably not a very good person to talk about work-life balance and fitting things in because I’m really bad at that. I guess I had to just set myself deadlines and try to stick to them the best I could. And the fact that other people were relying on me really helped. I’m not sure if I would have been able to be so disciplined if I’d been doing everything myself.
The power of deadlines and accountability.
Yes.
Using a book as a psychological intervention Practical tips: how to market a book so the people who need it can find it
So once the book was written, presumably then it falls to trying to get it out there and help people to find it.
Yeah.
How much of that marketing did you have to do yourself, and how much was done by the publisher?
The publisher did some. They had a budget for marketing. But they’re a very small publisher, and they don’t have much of a budget, so it was tough. We were on Amazon, which is the main outlet for us really. We tried our best to do as much marketing as we can, and we have the book out on our coffee table in the clinic, in the waiting room, and we recommend it to our kids’ schools and so on, and we’ve spoken to local bookshops. But really the main outlet is Amazon. And that’s tough when you’re a small group of first-time writers with a small publisher, because it’s very hard to be seen on Amazon. So book sales are doing okay, but it’s tough.
Okay. So all of us listening need to be out there and singing the praises of this book. I certainly will be…
Yes, please. That would be brilliant. Thank you.
… because I certainly meet families who will really benefit from it. And I do think any of the psychologists who are frequently wanting resources to recommend to families who are asking for them, Brighter Futures is a really good place to send them. You’ve also got an amazing website. When did you set that up?
Oh, thank you. Gosh, it was maybe a year ago that I started it, but it’s been very stop-start. My mum died just over a year ago, and so there’s been a lot going on, and it’s been really, really difficult to kind of get work things like that back up and running. So really, in about October, it properly was launched, and I’ve started to try and add content. Well, the aim is to add a new blog post weekly, but it’s not quite been weekly. It’s been more like fortnightly. But I feel like I’m making progress now.
And it’s really nice, digestible information for people.
Oh, thanks.
I can imagine it being like you’re struggling with something, and you look for your particular problem, and there’s a blog post with a nice, easy-to-understand title. That’s where I go to. I think that’s going to be a really helpful resource for people.
I really hope so. I mean, there’s obviously some content on there at the moment, but I hope it’s going to really build up. I’m hoping to have some guest writers on there as well so that there will be a much wider array of guidance for parents on there eventually.
Yeah, I think that’s a great idea. I think one of the things I’d like to do in the community is get people writing guest blogs for each other because we’ve got such a diverse range of expertise, and I think we all benefit from sharing that in different places.
Exactly. That’s why your group… I mean, I just jumped at the chance of becoming involved with what you’re trying to do because I really think that we can help each other.
Yeah, absolutely. So when it comes to getting your website found, do you know kind of how SEO works, how it’s doing with traffic?
I know a bit about SEO. I’ve had to learn. But the main help has come from using an organization called Pink SEO Marketing, a lady called Silvia Del Corso, who’s been absolutely fantastic. When I write an article, I mean, I’m not using her at the moment, but I did for the first few months, she would tell me the best title to use to optimize the chances of the article being found. And she would provide the keywords and the length of the article and then give me advice on subheadings and images and that kind of thing. So that’s really got me going, and I can pretty much do it myself now because… Obviously, she was massively helpful, but it’s quite expensive to use somebody like that, so I’m trying to do it myself now. So I think it’s helpful to have guidance to start with, and then you can carry on yourself.
Yeah, I mean, that’s definitely been my experience. I’ve got a blog for new parents. I typically write about the younger years. But yeah, I found very much the same thing, that it’s like I can learn this, but I definitely need some kind of expert input to get me off the ground.
Yeah.
And I’d love to do a master class for people on SEO, get an expert in to kind of give us all that knowledge. And also, it updates all the time. The thing I’ve found about Google is that you think you’ve learned one thing, and then they come in and change it. So I think periodic check-ins with an expert is kind of helpful.
I think you’re right. I think that would be so useful, and I think there’ll be lots of people interested in that. I certainly would.
I think we’ve got a responsibility to get this stuff… We write amazing stuff, but I think all too often I find amazing content on the internet that are colleagues in Britain, and I can see, because I’ve got an SEO tool so I can see people’s traffic, I can see that very few people are finding it. And it’s so frustrating because there is rubbish out there that is incredibly easy to find.
Yeah, exactly, which was one of the reasons why I’ve started this blog. I’m sure it’s the same for you, because there’s stuff out there that’s really mainstream that’s not written by anybody that has the qualifications to write what they’re writing, and it is frustrating.
Yeah. Yeah, and I think that’s part of the reason I absolutely love it when I come across stuff like yours, like in the book and in the website. I’m like, “This is credible. It’s evidence-based. It makes sense theoretically. It’s so much better than… ” Oh, in my NCT group, some of the girls were reading the… I can’t remember who she’s called now, and actually it’s probably better if I don’t name and shame. It was a sleep trainer that says that you should allow them to vomit and leave them and prop them up to make sure they don’t choke.
Wow.
But leave them in their vomit if they vomit from distress in the night. And I’m still, I’m shaking a little bit because that upset me so much when that was being talked about as like, “Oh, this is the advice.” And what they were saying was, “My instinct is uncomfortable, but the advice is telling me that I should be doing it.” And they were feeling bad about going in and picking their babies up.
Wow, gosh.
You go, “Oh, God.” That’s what is out there.
It’s really extreme.
But we can’t complain about it if we don’t get our voices out there.
Yeah.
And that’s kind of my mission with this whole community. It’s like if we don’t like some of the stuff that’s in the popular discourse, we’ve actually got to do something. And I think that’s exactly what you’ve done with this book and your website, and it’s what I’m hoping to do too. So I think it’s really great. Along your journey, were there any mistakes that you made or things that you’d avoid if you did it all again?
I mean, I’m sure I made loads of mistakes. I started out with using a do-it-yourself website builder that turned out not to have the functionality that I needed at all. It was really clunky. And when you logged in on the iPad, it looked awful, and the pictures were all over the place, and that was just a complete waste of time and money. In the end, I got somebody to help me to do that. But yeah, I’m sure I’ve made loads of mistakes really. I guess one thing I would like to do if I did it all again is to make it more of a team effort and collaborate with somebody. And I would have done that from the start, but there wasn’t anybody around who had the time to do that with me. But I think that’s what I’d like to do in an ideal world.
Yeah. I did the same thing actually. I tried to do a website on my own, and I thought it was fine, but it actually turned out that it looked terrible for anyone who goes to it. Eventually, about six months to a year in, I got a professional to come and do it. And it’s just been a total game-changer, because I think we forget that our expertise is helping people, whether that’s doing stuff like writing, whether it’s one-to-one therapy, it’s all of those things that we’re actually trained and good at. And all the hours that we spend trying to master something like web design actually is not serving the people that we can serve.
That’s true. And I think it’s hard to make that decision to invest money in something that you don’t know if… Even if it’s the aim to make some money eventually, you don’t know if that’s actually going to happen. It’s a big step to commit. But it sounds as though, for both of us, it’s been worth it.
Yeah, I absolutely think so. And yeah, it took me at least a year to realize that investing in my practice was definitely going to pay off. Even if it didn’t pay off financially, it would pay off in the quality of work that I was able to do. And I think even though it’s the basics of Maslow’s hierarchy, that if you are super, super stressed and feeling really threatened by your workload, you’re not going to do good therapy work, I still had to learn that the hard way. So in a way, I guess, we’d say that that was a mistake. But in another way, I think it might be a necessary one sometimes.
Yeah. Yeah, I’d agree with you there.
Yeah, because you’ve got to learn, haven’t you?
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Fighting the overwhelm
So I am going to put you on the spot slightly here. But last night, I was reading your chapter on helping children with concentration and motivation. And I know that when people are looking at tackling a big project like a book, that’s something that actually stops people from even getting started. They say, “I don’t think I’m going to be able to find the motivation to get up and write every day.” Have you got any top tips for how you keep yourself motivated during that time?
Wow. Well, I’m not sure if this is answering your question completely, but for me, one of the big issues is getting overwhelmed by a project. Having really big ideas… I have lots of big ideas, and then I get overwhelmed. And then I think, “Oh, I can’t,” and then I’m not motivated. So recently, I’ve been doing an online course to try and help myself with being organized and, therefore, being more motivated, and it’s helped me to learn how to break things down. So I’ve learned to break things down into tasks called next actions that can be done in about 10 minutes. So if you’re feeling really overwhelmed or stuck with something or unmotivated, you just write down as many next actions as you can think of randomly. They don’t have to be in an order. And then you choose one. You choose one that jumps out at you. And because it’s something that’s 10 minutes or less, it’s much harder not to be motivated and to procrastinate or avoid it.
I love that. That’s such a good idea.
Yes.
What’s the name of the online course, if you don’t mind sharing?
Oh, it’s called… I think the site is called LearnDoBecome or something like that, and the course is called STEP, and I can’t remember what that acronym stands for. It’s an American couple that I found on a podcast, and I just really liked what they were saying and the way they were describing things and the way they’ve presented it. I’m only about an eighth of the way through, but it’s been really, really helpful so far.
Amazing.
I can send you the link.
Yeah, that would be great, and I’ll pop it in the show notes for anybody who is struggling with overwhelm, because, yes, I think that is the biggest barrier. And I found that with most of the projects that I’ve worked on since I’ve been in private practice, that especially for me, because I really envy you having a team, and that’s something that I really want for myself in the future, because I do find when it’s just me and I’m like, “Oh, I’ve got this goal, and I want to do it,” and I’ve got nobody to bounce ideas off, the overwhelm really sets in. But I think breaking it down like that into small chunks, which are like 10 minute actionable, I think that will really help me. So thank you. That’s really helpful.
Good. Good. Fingers crossed.
So I wanted to ask you, because I’m sure there’s been loads of surprising and inspirational moments as you’ve gone through the process of writing a book and getting it out there, what would you say has been the most surprising or inspiring moment?
That’s a tough question. I think there’ve been lots of surprising and inspiring moments, but I think perhaps I would say the moments where I’ve had somebody outside of psychology give their views and thoughts on what I’m doing, because you can get very stuck in psychology, and it’s hard to see the world as other people might see it. For example, I had a session with a careers advisor just to look at the direction I was going in in some of these projects, ideas that I had and how to move them forward. And that really helped me because he helped me to see what potential I had in some of the ideas and in the book and the website and all the different directions I could go in, and the idea that perhaps I hadn’t even hit kind of second gear with what I was doing. So I guess getting inspiration from people who are in a completely different world or in a different field has been one of those best things.
Yeah, I think I really resonate with that because I joined a marketing mastermind about six months ago now, and I was really worried about it because it’s all people in completely different fields of work. There’s 13 of us, and it couldn’t be more diverse. You’ve got Pilates instructors. You’ve got accountants, literally the whole range, but no other psychologists or therapists. And getting their perspective, whenever I’m thinking like, “Should I do this? Should I do that?” getting a perspective that is completely non-psychological but is really… We’re all very invested in each other, and we really care about each other’s plans and projects… has been really, really inspiring. Sometimes they’re the ones who are like, “Yeah, you should do that social-media video,” because I had no idea about that.
Brilliant. It sounds as though even though you don’t have a team of psychologists, they’re kind of your support network and your team.
Yes. That’s what it feels like. I think it was my craving for a team that convinced me to invest in that. And yeah, sometimes I think that outside perspective can just be so valuable to us.
Yeah.
Okay. So I’ve got a couple of questions that I’m planning to always finish with with these podcast interviews. And one of those, selfishly, is who would you love to see interviewed on this podcast and why?
I would love to hear about any psychologists who have managed to achieve a high profile in kind of the mainstream, particularly in social media. A couple that I follow on Instagram, like the Mumologist and Psychology Mum, who I think you may be planning to have one or both on the podcast anyway, I’d be fascinated to know how they managed to achieve their success and what their plans are for the future. Also, it’s a dream of mine to have a community-interest company or some kind of nonprofit project in the future that helps local schools perhaps, and so I’d love to hear more from people who’ve successfully done that and how they did it really.
Yeah, me too. So I have… I’ve got the Mumologist lined up.
Excellent.
And I’m really excited about that. I need to get on the back of Psychology Mum because I… Instagram is a bit of an unknown beast to me. I’ve started trying, but I wouldn’t say that I’m that confident with it yet.
Yeah, same here.
So I’d love to hear more about how they’ve used it for good because I absolutely love their content. I think it’s so valuable. But I find when I make psycho-education content, it doesn’t go very far. So I’d love to hear how they’ve done that.
Yeah, absolutely. Same here.
Yeah, that’d be really cool. And also similarly, I actually want to turn the Do More Than Therapy community into a CRC, or I think probably I’d like to make it some kind of nonprofit. And I need that advice, so yep, I’ll be trying to track down those people. It sounds like what we want is very much aligned, so that’s good.
Sounds good.
Okay. So final selfish question to finish up: What two action steps do you want psychologists and therapists listening to this to go away and do now?
Wow. Well, I think a lot of the psychologists or therapists listening to this will be listening because they have a dream or a project in mind. So I think in the style of the book that I’ve written, Brighter Futures, the first step is to kind of spell out what your project or your dream is. So get it on paper, get it written down, and make sure that it’s… I guess this would be step two, would be make sure that it’s something that moves you towards your values. So write it down, make it specific, spell out what it actually is, and then check will it be moving towards your values, and if so, how?
I think that’s so important. It’s impossible to be motivated to do something if you’re not clear on how it’s going to move you towards your values. I love that. And thank you so much. You’ve shared so much wisdom today. I’m sure there are going to be loads of people who want to connect with you after this. So correct me if I’m wrong about any of this, but your website is theyarethefuture.co.uk.
That’s right. Yep.
Which is brilliant and has loads of helpful stuff. On Facebook, you’re @tatfwellbeing.
Yes, and no hyphen in wellbeing, I believe.
Yeah, no hyphen. I’m never sure whether there should be a hyphen in wellbeing.
I know.
And on Instagram you’re @tatf_drlucy and Twitter @DrLucyRussell.
That’s right. Yeah.
So I’ll put all of those links into the show notes so that people can look you up, buy a copy of Brighter Futures, I definitely recommend it, and maybe have a chat with you in the Facebook community, in the Do More Than Therapy community.