Cliff let go of the constraints that hold many psychologists and therapists back right at the beginning of his career when he plunged himself into developing a school in Ukraine. Find out how he did it, what it took and how that experience shaped his career from learning disabilities to management consultancy in this episode.
Cliff is a great example of a psychologist who was willing to step outside of the “normal” roles in order to make a change he saw was needed in the world.
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Setting up a school in the Ukraine
Rosie:
Today I’m speaking to Cliff Hawkins, a clinical psychologist, who over the past 35 years, has had an awe inspiring, diverse career. Just going through his CV it’s clear that doing more than therapy has been central to his career from the beginning, and is so much that I think we could all learn from. So I’m just going to jump in and welcome Cliff Hawkins to the podcast. Hi Cliff.
Cliff:
Thank you very much. Thank you Rosie.
Rosie:
So thank you so much for coming on today Cliff. Over the last 35 years you’ve done some really cool stuff. So if you had to pick just one thing that you’ve done, what would you say has been the most professionally fulfilling part of your career?
Cliff:
To me, undoubtedly it was having the opportunity to be involved in opening Ukraine’s first school for children with severe learning disabilities, shortly after Ukraine separated from the Soviet Union.
Rosie:
Wow, that’s an amazing thing to be part of. How on earth did you get into that?
Cliff:
Well, I was very lucky. I was working at the Institute of Psychiatry at the time, with Professor Bill [Euele 00:01:00] and a couple of Ukrainian parents had come to England, to the Institute of Psychiatry, to seek a diagnosis for their young daughter. And I was asked to work with them clinically, and it became clear that when they went back to Ukraine, their child wouldn’t be entitled to any support whatsoever, would be excluded from school.
Cliff:
And so Bill [Euele 00:01:26] and I thought, “Well, we need to do something to help here.” So we started off by raising money, and quickly we realized that money wasn’t sufficient, that what they needed was some help in setting up a school, which would effectively be a private school. And so what I did was, went to Ukraine and started giving lectures at the Institute of Psychology there, about special education in the UK.
Cliff:
And what I learned very quickly was that our task wasn’t to replicate a British system of special education in Ukraine. That would be akin to cultural fascism. Rather, what we needed to do, was to help Ukrainian parents develop a Ukrainian system, that could draw on the rich heritage of Russian psychology, as well as the ideas that we’d learned in British psychology.
Rosie:
I mean, that’s just amazing on so many levels. To start with, obviously I can imagine thinking “We need to raise some money for this issue.” But then how did you take the next steps, when you realized that wasn’t going to be adequate, how did you make the links that you needed even?
Cliff:
By firstly raising money to fly me out to Ukraine. This was in the context of the Soviet Union had just ended. Ukraine was in turmoil. Everyone was very optimistic about the future. However, at that particular point, the Ukrainian economy had gone into meltdown, and government systems had gone into meltdown as well.
Cliff:
Luckily, universities hadn’t. They were starting to be very keen on inviting westerners to come over and talk about western science, and particularly psychology. And what I found was that there were many Ukrainian psychologists who were very keen on a non-medical approach to special education, and to special needs in general, because previously psychiatry had been the dominant model. And thankfully from our point of view, psychiatry had been completely discredited, because of psychiatrist’s collusion with state sponsored detention with people in psychiatric hospitals.
Cliff:
So many of the parents of children I was working with, I was told those parents were simply not prepared to have their child see a psychiatrist, but because clinical psychology was virtually unknown, they didn’t mind seeing a clinical psychologist, and so we were able to fill that vacuum.
Rosie:
Wow. What a context. At that time, how did that compare to the context you were working under in this country?
Cliff:
Well, it was surreal. I was working at that point in the NHS actually, with adults with learning disabilities, in a regular NHS job. Following normal NHS rules, and all the benefits and costs that that implied. And then I was working in, effectively a wild west scenario in Ukraine, where normal rule of law didn’t apply. Bribery was the way to get things done. At that point, I didn’t speak a word of Russian, so I was reliant on interpreters, and not always sure how far I could trust either the interpreter’s ability, or their motives. And so it was a real contrast.
Cliff:
But what I found was that the confidence I learned from making things happen in Ukraine, then transferred to other areas of my professional, and indeed my personal life, that I thought “Well if I can achieve this, I can achieve anything.”
Rosie:
Yeah, I bet. Because often when I speak to other psychologists in this country, and we’re trying to set things up, we’re trying to get things moving. The red tape is really intimidating, and sometimes you just feel like, “I just don’t even understand commissioning enough to actually put forward an idea.” Right? But actually you did that in a system where you didn’t speak the language, you didn’t have the cultural references. So I suppose we should probably stop moaning.
Cliff:
We found whiskey was the way to cut through the red tape. Scotch whiskey was very, very expensive on the black market, and we found that bottles of scotch whiskey miraculously enabled things to happen. So I don’t know if that would work in the NHS.
Rosie:
I don’t know. I mean, I haven’t tried it. Yeah, so that sounds like an amazing experience, but certainly must’ve been an intimidating one. How did you feel flying out with that mission in your mind?
Cliff:
My first thought, the first time I flew out was, “I can’t speak the language.” Like most people of my generation, I knew nothing about Russia or the Soviet Union, other than cossack hats and bears. I bought myself a tape, Teach Yourself Russian, a couple of weeks before I went, and it didn’t work at all. I still couldn’t speak a word of Russian. So on the flight I was desperately reading Teach Yourself Russian books, and thinking, “Well, this isn’t going to work.”
Cliff:
And what I learned was that didn’t matter, that my training as a clinical psychologist meant that body language was key. So often, if I was interviewing a parent of a child with a learning disability, I would often have an interpreter of sorts there. However, what I found was that by focusing on the parent, I’d pick up the odd word, and there were more similarities than differences in how that parent was talking. So over time, I found that I could learn the keywords, and that my clinical psychology training was sufficient. That I could get the message from what the parent was saying, or the grandparents. In that society, often the grandparent, or the grandmother, is the key carer, rather than the mother.
Rosie:
Gosh, I mean, that’s really inspiring to me, particularly, because of my husband’s job, we’re moving to Turkey for a couple of years.
Cliff:
Oh right.
Rosie:
Yeah. And I’m not going to work clinically in Turkey. I’ll still be carrying on my online practice, but I’ve been trying to learn the language, using the Rosetta Stone, and there’s just something missing isn’t there? There’s no human. And I have been saying to my husband optimistically, that I feel like I’ll pick it up more when I can see somebody speaking it to me. I’m very comforted by your story, because you went out there and did something amazing and ambitious. My only hope is to survive. And so if you can do that, maybe I can survive it.
Rosie:
So you must’ve had no idea really how this was going to end up when you were first going out there. How did things take shape? What was the timeline?
Cliff:
Things took a lot longer than we expected, because of the collapse of Ukrainian economy. So we raised quite a lot of money in the UK. People running the London Marathon, and so on. And what we did was we enabled a group of teachers and parents to open a school in a disused school building. So it was effectively a private school.
Cliff:
We raised the money to pay the teacher’s salaries, and we paid them in US dollars, which gave us a massive advantage. So we were able to poach teachers from the state sector, who were being paid in the local money, which was becoming worthless because of hyperinflation. So a comparatively small amount of US dollars went a long, long way.
Cliff:
At the Institute of Psychiatry, we set up a charity specific to this project, and initially we thought we would support it for five years financially, and in terms of expertise. We didn’t want this to be a British school. We wanted it to be supporting a Ukrainian school. What we found though, was that as the five years were coming to an end, the school still wasn’t able to be self sufficient financially. So we carried on supporting it, and we set ourselves an absolute deadline of 10 years, and we stuck to that. So at the end of 10 years we pulled out completely.
Cliff:
And I’m still in contact with people in the school. I’m still friends with many of the people, and the school is still going. It’s thriving, and it’s a Ukrainian school. It’s not a British school. And we’re very pleased about that.
Rosie:
That’s amazing, that’s amazing.
Cliff:
Though I have no formal contact. Excuse me?
Rosie:
I was just saying, I’m not surprised that the timeline had to be extended a bit. But I love the fact that you were flexible with that. Flexible enough to be like, “This is still the goal. This is still what we want. But actually it needs a bit more nurture. It needs a bit more time, before we can set it free,” in that way.
Rosie:
So for that five year period, were you out there the whole time?
Cliff:
No, no. I would go out typically for a couple of weeks at a time. By this stage I’d left the Institute of Psychiatry. I was working in the NHS full time. And luckily that employer was very good at giving me study leave, and I used all my annual leave of course, and would typically be there for a week or two at a time. Often taking other colleagues, professionals with me, psychologists, speech and language therapists, OTs.
Cliff:
And then when I was in the UK I’d be cutting lots of links. There weren’t good computer links at that point. A lot of the contact had to be either by telephone, or fax. That was in the very early days of email. And so I would be project managing from the UK, and then going there to Ukraine whenever I needed to. And also as it turned out, then going to other former Soviet countries to learn from what they were doing.
Cliff:
Some former Soviet countries were further ahead, in terms of special education, and clearly it was going to be more useful for Ukraine to make links with, for example, Belarus and Lithuania, than it was to always be dependent on a distant country such as the UK.
Rosie:
Wow. I mean what really strikes me, from what you’ve said so far, is that you had a very, what I would call even now, progressive mindset in that, I think when I think back to that period, because this was the early nineties.
Cliff:
Yes. Early to mid nineties, yeah.
Rosie:
So in my household we didn’t have a computer. Wouldn’t even have thought about having a computer, in fact. I think my parents knew what they were, but that’s about it. So the idea that you would do something as ambitious as starting relationships in different countries, and introducing people to each other, and setting up a network in that way. Did you have a background that put you in that mindset?
Cliff:
I don’t think so. What we found was that the former Soviet countries were way ahead of the UK, in terms of understanding of things such as email, and the possibilities. So the first emails was I was getting, were from colleagues in former Soviet countries, not from the UK, or from the US.
Cliff:
And I think in the UK, because certainly people in my generation had a stereotype of Russia and the Soviet Union. That stereotype is a stereotype, and in fact the Soviet Union and Soviet countries put a lot of store by science, much more so than in the UK. A scientist is a term of respect in former Soviet countries, whereas in the UK it usually suggests someone who’s a bit wacky, a bit weird.
Rosie:
Yes. I’ve noticed that actually. I did some research in the Czech Republic when I was there.
Cliff:
Oh yes.
Rosie:
And when I arrived they had a little sign for me and my colleague that said, “Welcome rockstar scientists.”
Cliff:
Right, right, yes.
Rosie:
I feel that you wouldn’t see that in the UK. Probably the favourite label I’ve ever been given.
The kick to do something different in clinical psychology
Cliff:
I think what I did bring was a mistrust of working within the system. It seemed to me that to be a truly effective clinical psychologist, it was necessary to work outside the system, as well as within the system, to not be constrained, not to be a drone, if you like.
Cliff:
I think that many clinical psychologists are constrained, by definition, where intelligent people, to have got over the various hurdles to qualify. And then I think particularly the NHS can constrain us, sometimes deliberately, sometimes accidentally, so that we’re not making the most of our gifts.
Rosie:
I think that’s true actually. I think I didn’t particularly want to go into private practice when I did. It was life circumstances for me dictated it. But, and I thought it was just going to be terrifying, frankly, at the beginning. But what I found about a year in, is I started to find my creativity with it, and I started to really enjoy the fact that I was like, “I think we need a group. Oh, I’ll do a group.”
Rosie:
And it was like, “Oh, there’s no layers of approval.” I mean sure, I still do service evaluation of my own, but there’s not that extra layer of scrutiny that can sometimes be a bit oppressive. But it does usually take a bit of a kick for a lot of us NHS psychologists to start thinking like that.
Rosie:
So where did your kick come from? Because it seems like you had it so early in your career?
Cliff:
I think I was lucky, in that I knew from a very young age that I wanted to be a psychologist, from the age of 15. And in those days being a psychologist was most definitely a wacky idea. And I remember the school I went to was a very old fashioned traditional, boys only school. And I remember our headmaster with the boys who he thought were promising, he would have an interview with each of us.
Cliff:
And I remember him saying to me, “Well Hawkins, what do you want to do when you leave school?” And I said, “Well, I’m going to become a psychologist.” And he just looked at me and said, “But you could have a really good career. You could be a doctor, or a lawyer.” Because in those days, being a psychologist was just a bizarre concept. So because I decided so young, I didn’t know there were different types of psychologists, and I didn’t know who employed them.
Cliff:
Because I’d read some psychology books, I just thought this sounds like an interesting thing to do. And so I never really had the concept that I had to work in a particular way. I just thought, “Well, as long as I’m using psychology then that’s fine.”
Cliff:
And coming back to what you were saying, Rosie, about private practice, the work in Ukraine, of course I wasn’t earning any money. In fact, over time it was costing me money, but what I gained from that was far more important. And I think for me, private practice might be about making more money, might be about making less money. It might be about making no money at all. But it does enable that freedom, that sometimes people find they don’t get enough of, working for the state.
Rosie:
And that’s another thing that I think came through in that story, was that although you weren’t doing it for profit, you weren’t money minded about it for your personal gain, you had to use money, to get the job done. That sustainability was a big part of how that project grew.
Cliff:
Yes, because I was representing a UK charity, and so we had to follow UK charity laws. Unfortunately that didn’t necessarily chime well with the Ukrainian way of doing business, where I would often be looking at Ukrainian accounts and thinking, “Well where’s this money gone?” Knowing full well it had gone in bribes. And thinking “Well I can’t tell the UK charity, this is the money we’ve spent on bribes.” So I was having to reconcile different ways of operating different cultures, if you like.
Rosie:
That sounds like a massive challenge. I mean I would ask how you overcame it, but I don’t know, can you answer that?
Cliff:
Well I think we just put down amounts for salaries, which was true. The amount that people were paid was sometimes not the amount that they received, for various reasons. And what also had to do was to make sure that the Ukrainian people were writing the accounts, in a way that were decipherable in the UK. So we had to make the two cultures match. And luckily the charity, the UK charity trustees were very sympathetic and understandable, and understanding, and so they helped us make things work.
Taking a new direction. What is management consultancy and how can psychologists do it well?
Rosie:
I mean there’s just so many reasons that that project was improbable, that the success of that was unlikely. And it’s just really inspiring to hear how you pushed through all of those barriers. I mean, looking at your CV, I can see that you’ve got qualifications in business, that those [inaudible 00:18:35] data.
Rosie:
So what inspired you to study? I think it was with the Open University, where I also have studied.
Cliff:
Right, right.
Rosie:
So what inspired you to study business with the OU?
Cliff:
Well, partly because of the work in Ukraine. I realized that I could be a project manager, and I enjoyed project management, and it seemed to be something I was reasonably competent at doing. And so a few years later I saw an advert in what was then the BPS Appointments memorandum, asking for associates to do management consultancy. And by then I was head of a psychology department in the NHS.
Cliff:
So I thought, “Well I’ll give this a go.” And it was a company called Organisation Resource Limited, and they were a company set up by clinical psychologists to work in business. And they took me on as an associate, applying clinical psychology in business, which to me felt like something way outside my comfort zone. But again, having the confidence from working in Ukraine, I thought, “Well let’s give it a go.”
Cliff:
And I found I enjoyed it, and I could do it. What I found though, was that working with CEOs in business, although I had the clinical psychology, I didn’t really have the business background. And so I thought, “Well if I take an MBA, that will give me the business vocabulary as well.” And so I did that, and I did it with the OU, because then I could do that whilst I was still working full time. And so that felt like it was giving me the extra edge.
Rosie:
This is showing my ignorance, I know, but I am really interested, like what is management consultancy?
Cliff:
Well, there are many different types. The type that clinical psychologists often do are really focused on two areas. Firstly, change management. So typically we would work with large organizations that were going through mergers and acquisitions, and help the various people through that, which in itself would be a longterm process, using the psychology of change as a model.
Cliff:
And secondly, conflict resolution. So working with management and unions, for example, to cope with big changes, applying clinical psychology specifically. And there are many other types of management consultancy, for example, consulting on IT systems, which clearly wouldn’t be something a clinical psychologist would do.
Cliff:
What I found is that the clinical psychologists who are successful in management consultancy, are the ones who are successful at translating core concepts of clinical psychology, to people who aren’t necessarily attuned to psychology in the first place.
Rosie:
That’s really interesting, because on my caseload recently, I’ve had a few people whose companies have been going through big changes, maybe mergers. And their job roles changed, and it hasn’t been communicated very well. And I’m now seeing them clinically, for the anxiety that that brings.
Cliff:
Right, right. Yes.
Rosie:
So actually that’s put the puzzle piece where it needed to be in my head, and I think I now get what we can do, to be useful in that setting.
Cliff:
Yes. It’s known for that with business coaching as well. So some of my work was and is with someone who may, for example, be a highly talented engineer, but has never had any training, or seen any particular purpose in people skills. And so my job might be to help that person use their intelligence that’s got them where they are as an engineer, to become a little bit better at being a people person, if you will.
Rosie:
That’s such a broad spectrum of work. I mean going from helping people with severe learning disability, to helping talented managers and CEOs. You’ve really seen a whole range of people.
Personal reflections and the way forward
Rosie:
So I guess, what has that really taught you about yourself as a person?
Cliff:
It’s taught me that psychology is psychology, and clinical psychology is equally applicable. I think that clinical psychology training in the UK tends to encourage us to pigeon hole, and to overspecialize. We do placements based on people’s diagnoses, or life stages, rather than anything else.
Cliff:
And what I found is that clinical psychology is transferable. That the skills that I learned as a clinical psychologist means that I can work with anybody. It doesn’t have to be just people that I happened to do a specialist placement in, or just in an area that I’ve worked in for a number of years. The skills we have are extremely transferable.
Rosie:
That’s so interesting. Because perhaps even the clinical part of clinical psychology is a bit of an unnecessary pigeon hole.
Cliff:
Yes, it implies that there’s something wrong with the people we work with. Whereas I’ve found working with people who are perfectly healthy psychologically, we can still help them live as fulfilling a life as possible.
Rosie:
And I’ve got a friend who’s a business coach, and she suffers a lot actually from the elitism of the label of clinical psychology, or even the label of therapist, and people really looking down on her skillset. But honestly, if I’m struggling with overwhelm, or stress, or feeling burnt out, like I can’t manage my workload, she is the person that will use, what I would call ACT therapy techniques, to get me back on my feet.
Rosie:
To me it’s so similar to what I do in the therapy room. And she is a master at it. So I feel sometimes our labels are very constraining, professionally, and probably also for the people that we’re trying to help.
Rosie:
So who’s been your key supporter through your career? Because I’m guessing a career like this, there have been people along the way that have helped.
Cliff:
Yes, many. I think the key thing for me is that the various people who’ve been my manager over time, I’ve aimed to learn what I can from each of those people, because I’ve been saying to myself, “They haven’t got to the position they’re in by accident, and so there’s something about them that I can learn.” So having taken something from each of them.
Cliff:
Picking one person though, John Rose, who’s a professor of clinical psychology at Birmingham University, he’s been there right from when I was a trainee psychologist in Oxford, right through to now. He’s a personal friend now as well. And I think over those years, there’ve been many times when he’s given me advice. And also many times when I’ve used him as a role model, when I’ve looked at him and thought, “Well how is he doing that? And what can I learn from that?”
Rosie:
I think we all need somebody like that, don’t we?
Cliff:
Well, I certainly do, and I’ve found that being open to learning from others is key. Especially people who perhaps are very different from me, where I think, “Well, I’m not going to become similar to you. Nevertheless, there are things that I can learn from you, and things that I can apply and adapt, from what you do.”
Rosie:
Yeah I think that is so important, and I’m in a group of other business owners for marketing coaching, and our backgrounds couldn’t be more diverse really. There are people there teaching Pilates, there are accountants, there’s no other psychologists or therapists in the group. And I find that I learn so much from debating, and thinking about their business problems, and thinking in spheres that are so different to mine. That often it’s that, that will spark my creativity to do something maybe differently, and obviously it looks completely different in a clinical psychologist sort of a role. Sparked by that person’s creativity, in the way that they approach their tasks.
Rosie:
So over such a amazingly diverse career, what has been the most surprising, or inspiring part of the journey for you?
Cliff:
The most surprising part for me was that I could work successfully in Ukraine, without being able to speak or understand Russian or Ukrainian. The most inspiring, I think, was working as a management consultant, and finding I could do it, even though I had no background in that, because that inspired me to think, “Well what else, maybe can I do, that I wouldn’t usually think that I can do?”
Rosie:
And I hope that some trainees will listen to this, because I think if we could all learn that lesson as early as you did, then we could do so much in the world. I think a lot of us, we don’t learn that until much later, when the time we have left is maybe more limited. But it seems like right from the beginning, you had a bit of that mindset, like “Let’s try this and just see how it works out.”
Cliff:
And I’m not naive. I recognize that as a white male, from a reasonably privileged background, I’ve had a lot of advantages that other people may not have. I guess we all have to deal the hands that we’re dealt, and some of us are luckier than others. Some of us have a significant amount of privilege. I have a significant amount of privilege, compared to many clinical psychologists. And it’s important not to shy away from that reality, I think.
Cliff:
However, when I’m in front of groups of trainee psychologists, I can always pick out two, or three, or five, who’ve got that extra spark. And I think “You’re the ones who are going to make it. You’re the ones who’ve got that something extra.” And maybe the real lesson is, “What have each of us got that gives us that age over other people?”
Rosie:
I mean this might be a really difficult question, but if somebody is listening to this and thinking, “I don’t know if I’ve got that, and I don’t know how I would nurture that in myself if I did.” What would be your advice to them?
Cliff:
I think for me, there are three lessons really, that I’ve learned. The first one is carpe diem, seize the day. That sometimes we don’t know that there’s an opportunity there until it’s gone. Many of the opportunities I’ve had, have been simply by replying to adverts, and getting the job, or the associate, or whatever it is, and thinking, “Well, how come I’ve got it? I’m sure I’m not the best person, no other person must have applied.” So I think a lot of people allow self-doubt to mean that they miss opportunities.
Cliff:
I think the second one for me, I’ve learned that hard work beats brilliance. I’ve known many very brilliant clinical psychologists. The ones who also work hard are very successful. The ones who don’t work hard usually aren’t very successful. I know I’m not a brilliant clinical psychologist, however I’ve found that hard work can often get there in the end.
Cliff:
And I think for me the third message is no surprises. I aim to not surprise my clients, and the most important thing for me is being on time. I find many clinical psychologists are extremely lazy about being on time. They’ll be late to book appointments. They’ll be late to meetings. And I would say firstly, never cancel appointments. Secondly, be on time, and thirdly, stay until the end.
Rosie:
Why is that so important do you think?
Cliff:
I think being dependent and reliable, means that it’s easy for people to trust us. So people will know that they can trust me. They can trust me to turn up when I say I’m going to, and to do what I say I’m going to do. So they don’t get surprises. Whereas I’ve got clients who say that with other clinical psychologists, they don’t know if that person’s going to be on time, or even if that person’s going to cancel the day before.
Cliff:
Not just clinical psychologist, however that’s the profession I’m in, so that’s the profession I’m particularly interested in. And I think simply treating our clients and our colleagues with respect, by turning up, and turning up on time. I don’t think it’s too much to ask, and yet for many clinical psychologists, unfortunately, it does seem too much to ask, because many clinical psychologists do cancel a lot of appointments, and are often late, and or leave early.
Rosie:
And I wonder if there’s something about the type of pressures that people find themselves under, which can take us away, and distract from that core attachment in the therapeutic relationship. And in our relationships with colleagues, because we’re all in relationship with each other, which should be a priority. And actually when we put our clinical heads on, and we think as a clinical psychologist, I think it’s clear that we would all agree, that that should be a priority. So I wonder what gets that pushed out of the center of people’s minds?
Rosie:
And I suppose I’m thinking about my experience of working in central London, and I actually, I insisted that, I was very fortunate, because I worked in learning disabilities, so I didn’t have the eight people booked into your diary for you, situation. I can’t imagine what it’s like to work under that. I didn’t have to. So I would see only a few people a day, and I would only see them in the afternoon, because I knew that public transport was so unreliable.
Rosie:
But I can imagine people with that kind of caseload, not to name and shame any particular kind of service, but we know where it happens. I imagine they would have been cancelling appointments left, right and center. And I wonder if it’s something about being totally overstretched, and not respecting your own boundaries that leads to that?
Cliff:
Yes. And I think there’s a culture in the NHS. I think because the NHS is a monopoly. I have a long term health condition, so I spend a lot of time in health appointments. And when I’m sat there waiting, I’m often thinking “If this wasn’t a monopoly you wouldn’t be able to treat me and everyone else like this, making us sit and wait an hour beyond our appointment time, without any apology.”
Cliff:
So I think, as clinical psychologists in the NHS, we’re part of a system that doesn’t value the consumer. That our time as a consumer is seen as unimportant, because it’s monopoly, because there isn’t anywhere else to go.
Rosie:
That’s really an interesting perspective, and it’s not something I’ve thought about before. I feel like I need to ponder that. You’re giving me a lot to ponder, thank you. So I have a selfish question for you to finish up today.
Cliff:
Sure.
Rosie:
Who would you like to see interviewed on this podcast in the future?
Cliff:
Lucy Johnstone. I think that she is very brave, because she continues to speak out against the biomedical model of mental illness, which is prevalent. When I was doing my clinical training, anti psychiatry was very, very live. And I worry that over the decades clinical psychology has really stepped away from that, and that there’s a danger of us being assistant psychiatrists.
Cliff:
And I think Lucy Johnstone particularly with publicizing the Power Threat Meaning Framework is a vital antidote. And I think that the more that her views are publicized, and the more than her work is supported, the better.
Rosie:
I would love to talk to Lucy Johnstone. I trained at Salomons, and so her work was absolutely at the heart of the way that we were trained. And her book about formulation, it was the first thing I ever read, that ever mentioned clinical psychology. So I was from a background where I didn’t know what a psychologist was. And within a year of finding out, I managed to get myself a job in the prison service, as an assistant psychologist, which I now know was extremely lucky.
Rosie:
I had no idea. I didn’t know what CBT was, and for some reason they gave me the job. And so I went from that to somebody gifting me Lucy Johntsone’s Formulation book, and so I feel like she’s really shaped my career. And she is so courageous on social media. She often says the things which I might think, but I’d be scared of the backlash.
Rosie:
Part of my motivation with doing this podcast, and the Facebook community, is that I think we need to fear the backlash a little bit less. Even if it is fierce, which sometimes it really is, it’s not bad that you’ve opened up that debate. Even if sometimes you overstep, and you have to retract a little bit. You do see happening sometimes. It’s like, “Oh actually maybe I said that a bit strongly.”
Rosie:
Or being disliked a little bit sometimes, by some people, might be a sacrifice that we have to make, if we actually want to change the conversation about mental health. And I think she really shows that, so thank you. That’s a brilliant suggestion, and I will try and hunt her down, anyway I can.
Rosie:
So Cliff, if people want to connect with you, which I’m sure they will, if they want to find out more about you, how can they find you? Because I know that is maybe not so easy.
Cliff:
No, I don’t have a web page, although I’m thinking that perhaps I need to. I’m not an early adopter, in terms of technology, I’m afraid. Perhaps I do need a webpage. However, for now email is the best way. My email is cliffhawki@aol.com.
Rosie:
Brilliant. And you’re also in the Do more than therapy communities, because I’ve seen you there?
Cliff:
Yeah, I’m on Facebook, and one day I’ll have an internet site.
Rosie:
Yes, because I hear that your private practice, you’re making duo location now.
Cliff:
Yes, I’ve relocated to Scotland, from the West Midlands. And although I’m still working in the West Midlands, I’m looking to build up my practice in Scotland as well.
Rosie:
Okay. So it seems like a website might be helpful.
Cliff:
Probably, yes.
Rosie:
Well, actually, I should hopefully be getting some resources into the community soon, about website building, when to do DIY, when to outsource, that kind of thing. So I will keep you posted for that, once I get it all sorted. But for the time being, thank you so much Cliff. It’s been really inspiring.